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Return Of The Frigate

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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by SWM   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:14 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
SWM wrote:Yes, we do. The Shark was a testbed for building the Detweilers. The original Oyster Bay plan called for using the Detweilers instead of the Sharks, but they weren't ready when the Alignment decided to launch Oyster Bay early. The Detweilers are definitely spider drive ships.


That´s not proof. It is potentially suggestive, but definitely not close to ironclad proof and certainty.

We have no clue how the original Oyster Bay operation was meant to look like.
The impression given was that it had been planned long before there existed functional spider drive ships at all.

I'm curious what gives you that impression. My impression was that Oyster Bay was specifically designed to take advantage of the stealth capabilities of the spider drive. It used spider drive missiles, spider drive spy ships, and spider drive missile control platforms. I don't see any way that the tactical goals could have been achieved without the spider drive. The entire operation depended on it. There is no evidence at all that Oyster Bay was planned before the spider drive was invented.

I'd also like to hear how the Shark could be considered a testbed for the Detweiler if the Detweiler were not a spider drive ship.

I will grant that we do not have absolute proof that the Detweiler is a spider drive ship. But I think the evidence is a lot stronger than you admit.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Hutch   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:27 am

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George J. Smith wrote:
munroburton wrote:
I vaguely recall something somewhere(it may have been previous speculation here on the forums) about the original Oyster Bay targeting both Haven and the Manticoran Alliance. SD(P)s with MDMs were going to trash the League Navy regardless; OB was launched early and only against the MA because the RMN took the wraps off Apollo and were almost in a position to eliminate the Havenite Navy and all associated works, freeing it to face the League squarely.


It would make sense that the Mesans would need/want a "far bigger number" of Detweiler-class ships than the 28 Sharks they had to strike at Haven's more dispersed shipyards.



I also seem to recall something of that nature, the Detweilers were discussing the revised plan in relation to the original plan.


Here is what I think you're looking for, from Storm from the Shadows:

"There are some downsides to that from our perspective. Prior to the Havenite attack on Manticore, we had every reason to project that the Manties would hammer the Sollies into drifting wreckage. That, of course, was what we wanted, given our own plans for the League. In light of the body blow the Manty Navy's just taken, they may not be able to hit the Sollies hard enough to fully accomplish our objectives for us in that respect. Our projections still indicate a significant chance that they would be able to, however, and even if that portion of our original plans achieves only partial success, it should still be adequate to set the stage for the next phase.

"Of course, the Manties are not alone at this time. In addition to the Royal Manticoran Navy itself, the Manticoran Alliance can count on the Grayson Navy and the Andermani. Indications are that the Andermani took significant damage themselves at Manticore, and previous reports have indicated that their general warfighting technology is still lagging behind the rest of the Alliance's. Moreover, the Andermani have always been . . . pragmatic. They signed on to the Alliance to fight Haven; none of our analysts believes they'd be willing to take on the SLN, especially if they'd be doing so effectively single-handedly. Which means that who we really have to worry about are the Manties and the Graysons. Given time, Haven would undoubtedly become a threat once more, as well, but once Manticore and Grayson go down, Haven won't have that time."

He smiled again, and this smile was even colder than the one before.

"A very few of you are aware that Benjamin has been working for quite some time now on an operation codenamed Oyster Bay. Those of you who know about it, also know we're still far short of all of our projected readiness dates for mounting it. However, Oyster Bay was originally intended to strike Manticore, Grayson, and all of the major Havenite building centers simultaneously. It would be impossible for us to launch an operation on that scale before the Manties' new construction comes out of the yards. But the fact that that new construction is still in the yards, concentrated in a limited volume of space where we can find it and get at it, and without the ability to defend itself, represents an enormous force multiplier for the Oyster Bay resources already available to us. In addition, we don't need to strike the Havenites at this moment. Their wall of battle has been effectively destroyed; their construction rates are still much slower than those of the Manties or the Graysons; and they don't have this new targeting system the Manties have deployed. In other words, we can deal with them later, using more conventional tactics if we have to.

"So, what it comes down to is this. The Manties' new technology is more dangerous than ever, but their combat strength has been cut back to no more than forty to sixty ships of the wall, and they have to be reeling strategically from the losses they've already taken. Despite their new tech, they're vulnerable in a way they've never been before. We have the means already in place in or approaching Talbott to cut off that entire lobe of this new 'Star Empire' of theirs, and get them into the shooting war with the League we've always wanted. And, after discussing our own readiness states with Benjamin and Daniel, I believe we're in a position to launch a modified, downscaled Oyster Bay, targeted on Manticore and Grayson only, within six T-months."
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by munroburton   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:28 pm

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Hutch wrote:Here is what I think you're looking for, from Storm from the Shadows:

"There are some downsides to that from our perspective. Prior to the Havenite attack on Manticore, we had every reason to project that the Manties would hammer the Sollies into drifting wreckage. That, of course, was what we wanted, given our own plans for the League. In light of the body blow the Manty Navy's just taken, they may not be able to hit the Sollies hard enough to fully accomplish our objectives for us in that respect. Our projections still indicate a significant chance that they would be able to, however, and even if that portion of our original plans achieves only partial success, it should still be adequate to set the stage for the next phase.

"Of course, the Manties are not alone at this time. In addition to the Royal Manticoran Navy itself, the Manticoran Alliance can count on the Grayson Navy and the Andermani. Indications are that the Andermani took significant damage themselves at Manticore, and previous reports have indicated that their general warfighting technology is still lagging behind the rest of the Alliance's. Moreover, the Andermani have always been . . . pragmatic. They signed on to the Alliance to fight Haven; none of our analysts believes they'd be willing to take on the SLN, especially if they'd be doing so effectively single-handedly. Which means that who we really have to worry about are the Manties and the Graysons. Given time, Haven would undoubtedly become a threat once more, as well, but once Manticore and Grayson go down, Haven won't have that time."

He smiled again, and this smile was even colder than the one before.

"A very few of you are aware that Benjamin has been working for quite some time now on an operation codenamed Oyster Bay. Those of you who know about it, also know we're still far short of all of our projected readiness dates for mounting it. However, Oyster Bay was originally intended to strike Manticore, Grayson, and all of the major Havenite building centers simultaneously. It would be impossible for us to launch an operation on that scale before the Manties' new construction comes out of the yards. But the fact that that new construction is still in the yards, concentrated in a limited volume of space where we can find it and get at it, and without the ability to defend itself, represents an enormous force multiplier for the Oyster Bay resources already available to us. In addition, we don't need to strike the Havenites at this moment. Their wall of battle has been effectively destroyed; their construction rates are still much slower than those of the Manties or the Graysons; and they don't have this new targeting system the Manties have deployed. In other words, we can deal with them later, using more conventional tactics if we have to.

"So, what it comes down to is this. The Manties' new technology is more dangerous than ever, but their combat strength has been cut back to no more than forty to sixty ships of the wall, and they have to be reeling strategically from the losses they've already taken. Despite their new tech, they're vulnerable in a way they've never been before. We have the means already in place in or approaching Talbott to cut off that entire lobe of this new 'Star Empire' of theirs, and get them into the shooting war with the League we've always wanted. And, after discussing our own readiness states with Benjamin and Daniel, I believe we're in a position to launch a modified, downscaled Oyster Bay, targeted on Manticore and Grayson only, within six T-months."


Perfect. Added some bolding for easier reading.

Straight from Albie's mouth too; there aren't many more credible mouthpieces for the Alignment, if any. It does hint that Alignment intelligence is a little off regarding the Manticorans' abilities in at least two aspects - first, assuming they wouldn't have new construction completed quicker in response to 1st BoMA and second, that Crandall would get anywhere near cutting Talbott off.

And of course, they underestimated Haven gravely.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:06 pm

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SWM wrote:I'm curious what gives you that impression. My impression was that Oyster Bay was specifically designed to take advantage of the stealth capabilities of the spider drive. It used spider drive missiles, spider drive spy ships, and spider drive missile control platforms. I don't see any way that the tactical goals could have been achieved without the spider drive. The entire operation depended on it.


The operation as executed depended on it yes.

There´s also the question whether it was meant to be executed by spider drive ships, or ships employing spider drives, or ships employing weapons or weapons packets with spider drives.

No i don´t disagree that they needed that stealth as part of most potential strikes, but it´s not completely absolute that it must be the main platforms relying 100% on spider drives.

SWM wrote: There is no evidence at all that Oyster Bay was planned before the spider drive was invented.


There is also no evidence to the contrary, making a statement either way purely an assumption.

SWM wrote:I'd also like to hear how the Shark could be considered a testbed for the Detweiler if the Detweiler were not a spider drive ship.


Depends on what they were specifically meant to test. It could for example be a test of their ability to build reliable ships in whatever shipyards they created for this production. Doing something big undercover can be a lot trickier than doing it as a "normal" nation.

There´s also the question if the Dets are purely spider drive, combination or no spider drive at all.

Or whether they use a next generation of the spider drive, OR a radically different drive alltogether, possibly a derivative of the spider drive.

SWM wrote:I will grant that we do not have absolute proof that the Detweiler is a spider drive ship. But I think the evidence is a lot stronger than you admit.


Actually, the evidence is extremely weak.

The only thing that actually suggests it at all is if we make the assumption that the Sharks reason for acting as testbed ships, is the spider drive. And if that was true and the only reason then there was a need for ONE, possibly TWO Shark class ships. Because if there is a need for a testbed for the spider drive for the Detweilers, then what you NEED, is a fullsized ship, otherwise you can´t actually be certain, as a lot of tech doesn´t scale 1:1.


Basic problem is, MA isn´t stupid, and as far as we know, building LARGE warships with spider drives, are stupid.

Not to mention that RFC isn´t stupid, which means he should have something "fun" prepared.

Basically, we know that remaining unseen with a big ship is difficult(more precisely, the larger the ship, the harder it is) as long as anyone bothers to look for it, and once they´ve used their stealth fun ( as in OB ), everyone else knows to look and look HARD.

Reaching MDM range by using spider drive ships may be possible, but that´s still a LOT of flight time for missiles, plenty of time for defenders to bring up their defences and retaliate, because once they KNOW where to start looking, big ships without wedges are going to be relatively easy to track.

And lack of sidewalls and wedges is a drawback that by all facts so far, just cannot be made up for by reduced visibility.

It´s in many ways a lot like current real world stealth, nice to have but very rarely worth the pricetag, because once the opposition started figuring out how to deal with it, there´s lots of counters.

IF, the ships could for example, fluently transit to/from hyper, especially without an emergence signature, then the spider drive might allow some much nastier tactics.
But that´s highly doubtful.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:26 pm

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SftS:

And about the fact that we were never supposed to carry this out with the Sharks in the first place, Freddy, he reminded himself. Don’t forget that minor point! This was what the Leonard Detweiler-class was supposed to be for after the Sharks proved the basic concept. They weren't supposed to carry out the actual mission themselves; they were supposed to serve as training ships for the crews of the ships that would execute the mission.

("The mission" being Oyster Bay.)

ART:

The torpedo's size made fitting it into magazines and actually firing it awkward, to say the least, and the Sharks had never been intended to deploy it operationally. For that matter, the Sharks themselves had never been supposed to be deployed "operationally." The Leonard Detweiler class, which had been intended to carry out this operation, had been designed with magazines and launch tubes which would make it possible to stow and fire torpedoes internally, but none of the Detweilers were even close to completion, and it had required the development of an ingenious external rack system to allow the Sharks to use it for Oyster Bay.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Kytheros   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:05 pm

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At some point, way back, RFC said that Lenny Dets, and perhaps most/all spider drive ships, were equipped with impeller rings, to generate wedges and sails.

As a result, despite the impression that I, at least, got from the books that the spider drive was incompatible with the impeller drive, Lenny Dets can raise a wedge and traditional sidewalls when they need to.
However ... with my impression on the probable size of the Lenny Dets, as the spider doesn't care about size, it seems likely that Lenny Dets are on the far side of the compensator curve drop-off, and so, even with military grade compensators, I expect that the Lenny Dets will maneuver rather poorly under impeller drive, and will be fortunate to contest with the first war Trojan merchant conversions like HMS Wayfarer, which reputedly had the moves of an octogenarian turtle (IIRC).
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:20 pm

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Kytheros wrote:At some point, way back, RFC said that Lenny Dets, and perhaps most/all spider drive ships, were equipped with impeller rings, to generate wedges and sails.


Ah, had not read that, but it does confirm my guess that they might use a combination.

As a result, despite the impression that I, at least, got from the books that the spider drive was incompatible with the impeller drive, Lenny Dets can raise a wedge and traditional sidewalls when they need to.


Incompatible as in that they can´t run at the same time. Which means there is probably a delay from when one drivetype is turned off until the other can be up and running.

However ... with my impression on the probable size of the Lenny Dets, as the spider doesn't care about size, it seems likely that Lenny Dets are on the far side of the compensator curve drop-off, and so, even with military grade compensators, I expect that the Lenny Dets will maneuver rather poorly under impeller drive, and will be fortunate to contest with the first war Trojan merchant conversions like HMS Wayfarer, which reputedly had the moves of an octogenarian turtle (IIRC).


Sounds like it so far, but there´s always the possibility that someone came up with something smart.

And of course, bigger size tend to make for greater durability. OTOH, any spiderdrive ship should require to spend more tonnage on armour to cover top/bottom areas(or even a single stray missile could kill the whole ship with a lucky shot).
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by drothgery   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:28 pm

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Kytheros wrote:At some point, way back, RFC said that Lenny Dets, and perhaps most/all spider drive ships, were equipped with impeller rings, to generate wedges and sails.
Sails, yes. Wedges, barring a cite, I'm still in the "they can't do that" camp.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:31 pm

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drothgery wrote:
Kytheros wrote:At some point, way back, RFC said that Lenny Dets, and perhaps most/all spider drive ships, were equipped with impeller rings, to generate wedges and sails.
Sails, yes. Wedges, barring a cite, I'm still in the "they can't do that" camp.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure the discussion being referenced was about alpha nodes, not beta nodes. The topic was about the theoretical uselessness of spider drive ships in traversing the wormhole network, and David's refutation of the premise.
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Re: Return Of The Frigate
Post by Louis R   » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:55 pm

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of course, since the alpha nodes, when not projecting sails, furnish 50% of the wedge strength of a warship, and up to 100% in commercial drives, only having alpha nodes is not in itself proof that there's no wedge. in fact, it's not unreasonable to read it as evidence that the spider classes do have them.

this rumour is neither confirmed nor denied

Duckk wrote:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the discussion being referenced was about alpha nodes, not beta nodes. The topic was about the theoretical uselessness of spider drive ships in traversing the wormhole network, and David's refutation of the premise.

drothgery wrote:
Kytheros wrote:At some point, way back, RFC said that Lenny Dets, and perhaps most/all spider drive ships, were equipped with impeller rings, to generate wedges and sails.
Sails, yes. Wedges, barring a cite, I'm still in the "they can't do that" camp.
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