Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 15 guests

Attacking Darius:

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:42 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4898
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

tlb wrote:But a microjump creates a signal in grav sensors as you return to normal space, so the stealth will not affect first detection and then the fleet can shoot before the arrivals can react.

kzt wrote:They know a bunch of things just jumped in due to the energy flare. The MA ships don’t show up on their sensors. And you’d microjump with relative velocity. Lets assume 1000km sec, so it is 100 km sec. In 20 milliseconds the ship is clear of anyone shooting at the bright flash. And maybe they dump a few gigaton scale fusion bombs too, for the sensor overlad effect. How long does it take to get the grasers on a GA ship ready to fire and permission granted? A second at least, maybe multiple seconds?

What is the MA doing in that time? Remember that this assumes they are within 30,000 km from where they planned, so they already have a loaded and pre-programmed automatic fire plan just waiting for targets when the pop out of hyper. So they star shooting within about 20ms. So the most threatening GA ships are dead before they even have processed they are under attack.

And for optimum effectiveness this would be slightly after the second wave of graser torps. Where the MA ships are there to complete the destruction that was unleashed about 5 seconds earlier, so you already have dozens of ship reactors failing with their petaton scale fireballs.

Whether or not they show up on sensors depends on whether they show up on radar, which will immediately be turned on.

Is that speed enough to be called a crash translation? Because if it is we have seen the effects in Echoes of Honor:
Chapter 36 wrote:Task Group 12.4.1, composed of Task Force 12.4's superdreadnoughts and their screening light cruisers, exploded out of hyper into n-space in brilliant, multipeaked flashes of azure transit energy barely a hundred and eighty thousand kilometers outside the twenty-two-light-minute hyper limit of the GO star known as Basilisk-A. It was a phenomenally precise piece of astrogation, but Javier Giscard was unable to appreciate it properly as he fought the mind-wrenching, stomach-lashing dizziness the crash translation sent smashing through him. He heard others on Salamis' flag bridge retching and knew thousands of other people throughout his flagship's huge hull were doing the same, and even through his own nausea, he reflected on how vulnerable his task group was in that moment. His ships' crews were as completely incapacitated as he himself for anywhere from ten seconds to two full minutes, depending on the individual. During those seconds and minutes, only the ships' automated missile defenses were available to stave off attack, and had any hostile vessel been in position to take advantage of that brief helplessness, the price could have been catastrophic.
We have also seen a translation on top of an SD in The Short Victorious War:
Chapter 14 wrote:"Hyper transit! I'm reading an unidentified hyper footprint!" Athena's tac officer snapped. His surprise showed in his voice, but he was already bent over his panel, working the contact.
"Where?" Commander Gregory demanded sharply.
"Bearing zero-zero-five, zero-one-one. Range one-eight-zero million klicks. Christ, Skipper! It's right on top of Bellerophon!"
* * *
"Contact! Enemy vessel bearing oh-five-three, oh-oh-six, range five-seven-four thousand kilometers!"
Pierre jerked in his command chair and twisted toward his ops officer's sudden, unanticipated report. They should be eleven light-minutes from their target! What the hell was the woman talking about?!
"Contact confirmed!" Selim's tac officer called out, and then— "Oh, my God! It's a dreadnought!"
Disbelief froze the admiral's mind. It couldn't be—not way the hell out here! But he was already turning back to his own display, and his heart lurched as it showed him CIC's confirming identification.
"Put us back into hyper!"
"We can't translate for another eight minutes, Sir," Selim's white-faced captain said. "The generators are still cycling."
Pierre stared at the captain, and his mind whirled like a ground-looping air car. The man's words seemed to take forever to register, while his ships closed with the enemy at over forty thousand kilometers per second, and the admiral swallowed around an icy lump of panic. They were dead. They were all dead, unless, just possibly, that dreadnought's crew was as shocked as he was. He had a clear shot down the front of her wedge if he could get his ships around to clear their broadsides, and they couldn't possibly have been expecting him to appear in their face. If they took long enough reacting, long enough getting to battle stations—
"Hard a port!" he barked. "All batteries, fire as you bear!"
* * *
"Sweet Jesus, they're Peeps!" Bellerophon's junior tactical officer whispered. The Book didn't like enemy reports like that, but Lieutenant Commander Avshari felt no inclination to criticize. After all, The Book didn't envision this lunatic sort of situation, either.
The lieutenant commander watched his status boards' green lights turn amber and red and wished to hell the Captain would get here. Or the Exec. Or anybody senior to him, because he didn't have a clue and he knew it. This was supposed to be a milk run, a good opportunity for junior watch keepers to get a little bridge time on their logs, but he was a communications officer, for God's sake—and one whose Academy tactical scores had been a disaster, to boot! What the hell was he supposed to do next?
"Sidewalls active! Starboard energy batteries closed up on computer override, Sir!" the youthful lieutenant at Tactical said, and Avshari nodded in relief. That decided which way to turn, anyway.
"Bring us hard to port, Helm."
"Aye, aye, Sir. Coming hard to port."
The dreadnought began her turn, and fresh alarms whooped even as she swung.
"Incoming fire!" the tac officer snapped, and lasers and grasers ripped at Bellerophon's suddenly interposed sidewall. Most of them achieved absolutely nothing as the sidewall bent and degraded them, but red lights bloomed on Avshari's damage control display as half a dozen minor hits cratered her massive armor, and this time he knew exactly what to do.
"Ms. Wolversham, you are authorized to return fire!" Bellerophon's com officer barked the order straight from The Book, and Lieutenant Arlene Wolversham punched the button.
* * *
Admiral Pierre swallowed a groan as the dreadnought snapped around and her sidewall swatted his broadsides contemptuously aside. He'd never seen a ship that size maneuver so rapidly and confidently. She'd taken barely ten seconds to bring her sidewalls up and get around—her captain must have the instincts and reactions of a cat!
He could see his intended prey's impeller signature in his display now, millions of kilometers astern of the dreadnought, and realized intuitively what had happened. His intelligence had been perfect, but he'd blundered into an unscheduled departure. A stupid, routine transit there'd been no way to predict. And now there was no way to evade the consequences.
"All units, roll ship!" he barked, but even as he snapped out the order, he knew it was futile this deep into the enemy's missile envelope. Even if his ships rolled up behind their wedges in time to evade the dreadnought's beams, it would only delay the inevitable, require her to kill them with laser heads, instead. . . .
And then he realized they weren't going to manage even that much.
* * *
HMS Bellerophon's broadside opened fire, and enough energy to shatter a small moon flashed through the "gunports" in her starboard sidewall.
A quarter-second later, Battlecruiser Divisions 141 and 142 of the People's Navy ceased to exist.

So maybe you are correct, but we will not know until RFC writes that scene.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:59 am

penny
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

kzt wrote:
penny wrote:If pre-spotted invisible weapons platforms are placed where they will be behind an emerging enemy hypering into the system, being that they are located behind the enemy should make them even stealthier. I see no reason the GA won't attempt to duplicate their previous tactics of stooging around at the edge of the system sizing the enemy up.

If you were to put a base a light-day or more away from the primary and have it stocked with say a thousand graser torps....

And that base could be a very special, very stealthy, hybrid, spider-drive/wedge fort.

kzt wrote:The other way to really screw up the current GA tactic is to have enough precision in a microjump that you have an average deviation say 10% of a light-second. Then you jump a squadron of energy heavy fully stealthed ships into the midst of the fleet. You combine that with the demonstrated ability to screw up GA sensors with big honking fusion bombs (which have no effect on grav sensors) I think it would be interesting. At that range I'm sure the GA fleet can detect and localize the MA stealthed vessels, but I further suspect that they won't be able to do it in the five or so seconds they have.

Damn! That is devious! And worthy of an Alpha Award!

It reminds me of a scene in Battlefield Earth where a planet-killer bomb was beamed onto a platform on Earth. Devious and brilliant.

On that note. Why isn't microjumping a practiced tactic?
.
.
.

The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 10:16 am

penny
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

At any rate, if storyline wasn't misleading me that pulling off a complex microjump is a factor of ones astrogator, like Theophile Kgari, then shouldn't the MA - being the Alphas that they are - be able to handle complex microjumps with ease?
.
.
.

The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:58 am

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4722
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

penny wrote:At any rate, if storyline wasn't misleading me that pulling off a complex microjump is a factor of ones astrogator, like Theophile Kgari, then shouldn't the MA - being the Alphas that they are - be able to handle complex microjumps with ease?


It doesn't appear the Alphas are actually more intelligent than the average cream-of-the-crop GA officer. They're probably healthier and more beautiful, and will live longer, but it doesn't appear intelligence has actually increased by that much. Maybe on average over the entire population; but with tens of billions to select from, the GA Navies actually find the best.

RFC has said multiple times in the books that increase in intelligence is matched by an increase in debilitating side-effects, like Francesca Simões.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:09 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4722
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

penny wrote:They managed to take out two Superdreadnaughts, a CLAC, and thirty-six LACs. And Shuttlecock was just a probe of GA defenses???!


And yet, this probe is the only thing that managed to make any damage to the Grand Fleet for the next two weeks of battle, until the surrender. It was a probe but the Galton Navy didn't manage to capitalise on anything they learned. They were a one-trick pony, with nothing else new left to use after that. This was a tactic created by Alphas in Darius, though they were hamstrung by what weapons the Onion was allowing to be used.

And as others have pointed out, the GF learned too. Every attack, every success and every defeat, are learning opportunities for both sides.

The question for the MAlign and the MAN is how many tricks they have up their sleeves. It can't be just the spider drive.

I'd actually bet more on the Inner Onion having an escape plan. Darius can't be defended in the long run. They can make the price of taking Darius be incredibly high, but they can't outfight and outproduce the entire GA, and definitely not if the SL joins in with their industry.

The counterpoint of there being any jump in time after 1924 is that the SLN will have had time to build their own SD(P)s. They won't be individually as good as the GA merged tech, but "quantity has a quality of its own" and if the SLN contributes 500 SD(P)s to a core of 250 GA ones in the Grand Fleet, it's a lot of metal to get through. I think the time jump will be at most 5 years, so I don't think this will come to pass, though.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:31 pm

penny
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:They managed to take out two Superdreadnaughts, a CLAC, and thirty-six LACs. And Shuttlecock was just a probe of GA defenses???!


And yet, this probe is the only thing that managed to make any damage to the Grand Fleet for the next two weeks of battle, until the surrender. It was a probe but the Galton Navy didn't manage to capitalise on anything they learned. They were a one-trick pony, with nothing else new left to use after that. This was a tactic created by Alphas in Darius, though they were hamstrung by what weapons the Onion was allowing to be used.

And as others have pointed out, the GF learned too. Every attack, every success and every defeat, are learning opportunities for both sides.

The question for the MAlign and the MAN is how many tricks they have up their sleeves. It can't be just the spider drive.

I'd actually bet more on the Inner Onion having an escape plan. Darius can't be defended in the long run. They can make the price of taking Darius be incredibly high, but they can't outfight and outproduce the entire GA, and definitely not if the SL joins in with their industry.

The counterpoint of there being any jump in time after 1924 is that the SLN will have had time to build their own SD(P)s. They won't be individually as good as the GA merged tech, but "quantity has a quality of its own" and if the SLN contributes 500 SD(P)s to a core of 250 GA ones in the Grand Fleet, it's a lot of metal to get through. I think the time jump will be at most 5 years, so I don't think this will come to pass, though.

That isn't true. The sucker punch destroyed more ships. The MA tricked the GA into coming closer. As they will have to do when attacking Darius. A conventional missile battle, as Honor alluded to -- which is Honor's usual MO that Adabayo was counting on.

But you and tlb keep sinking your teeth in that fact, and it isn't fair to Galton. The only reason there wasn't more deaths is because the GA bugged out and hypered out. We all know, as well as Honor that there would have been a lot more deaths. Plus! Galton was severely handicapped all around. They didn't even have enuff of the Hastas.

And there is no way that any one doubts there are a lot more MAlign tricks to come.
.
.
.

The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 2:43 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4898
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

penny wrote:They managed to take out two Superdreadnaughts, a CLAC, and thirty-six LACs. And Shuttlecock was just a probe of GA defenses???!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And yet, this probe is the only thing that managed to make any damage to the Grand Fleet for the next two weeks of battle, until the surrender.

penny wrote:That isn't true. The sucker punch destroyed more ships. The MA tricked the GA into coming closer.

On the contrary, ThinksMarkedly's point is strictly true; since the sucker punch occurred AFTER the surrender.

PS. It does not count as bugging out, if the whole reason for being outside the hyperlimit is to maintain the ability to momentarily doge a massive missile attack.
Last edited by tlb on Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:11 pm

penny
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

Yes, Shuttlecock only destroyed three ships. But it was only intended to be a probe.

But let's really talk about cherry picking. Galton launched 14,000 missiles. Only 430 of them survived to detonate. Only 430 missiles destroyed two SDs and thirty-six LACs. Isn't that a better performance than Apollo? One thing about a navy with g-torps, they do not have to waste them by concentrating their fire on a single or several ships. Shuttlecock was not concentrated. Apollo usually is.

A bigger Alpha launch sporting an ECM with a Manty power budget will level the playing field. Or tip it in throw weight to the dark side.
.
.
.

The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:15 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4898
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

penny wrote:Yes, Shuttlecock only destroyed three ships. But it was only intended to be a probe.

But let's really talk about cherry picking. Galton launched 14,000 missiles. Only 430 of them survived to detonate. Only 430 missiles destroyed two SDs and thirty-six LACs. Isn't that a better performance than Apollo? One thing about a navy with g-torps, they do not have to waste them by concentrating their fire on a single or several ships. Shuttlecock was not concentrated. Apollo usually is.

A bigger Alpha launch sporting an ECM with a Manty power budget will level the playing field. Or tip it in throw weight to the dark side.

No, count the total number of Hastas launched over the two week period and compare that to the total ships destroyed (which still is just three). So much for the probe.
Top
Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:19 pm

penny
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:55 am

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:They managed to take out two Superdreadnaughts, a CLAC, and thirty-six LACs. And Shuttlecock was just a probe of GA defenses???!


And yet, this probe is the only thing that managed to make any damage to the Grand Fleet for the next two weeks of battle, until the surrender. It was a probe but the Galton Navy didn't manage to capitalise on anything they learned. They were a one-trick pony, with nothing else new left to use after that. This was a tactic created by Alphas in Darius, though they were hamstrung by what weapons the Onion was allowing to be used.

And as others have pointed out, the GF learned too. Every attack, every success and every defeat, are learning opportunities for both sides.

The question for the MAlign and the MAN is how many tricks they have up their sleeves. It can't be just the spider drive.

I'd actually bet more on the Inner Onion having an escape plan. Darius can't be defended in the long run. They can make the price of taking Darius be incredibly high, but they can't outfight and outproduce the entire GA, and definitely not if the SL joins in with their industry.

The counterpoint of there being any jump in time after 1924 is that the SLN will have had time to build their own SD(P)s. They won't be individually as good as the GA merged tech, but "quantity has a quality of its own" and if the SLN contributes 500 SD(P)s to a core of 250 GA ones in the Grand Fleet, it's a lot of metal to get through. I think the time jump will be at most 5 years, so I don't think this will come to pass, though.

I certainly concur with the escape plan. I have always contended that the last Houdini will be when Darius is attacked aboard the MAN flagship HOUDINI-ONE ... the Inner Onion.
.
.
.

The artist formerly known as cthia.

Now I can talk in the third person.
Top

Return to Honorverse