Attacking Darius:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:The Galton System's Order of Battle consisted of over thirty orbital fortresses. The smallest was as large as those covering the MWJ. There were fifty SDs to support those fortresses. Expect that number to be dim by comparison to Darius.

I don't, at least not in quantity. I always get the impression from the descriptions we've had that the Darius System is supposed to look like a paradise, not a "forge world" that Galton was described to be. Though I'll freely admit that the description can be deceptive because we've only been shown the city of Leonard and the recreation areas where Alphas go.

But also because having a fully militarised system goes counter to the Alamo Contingency and the descriptions and musings by Benjamin Detweiler in TEiF, that Darius was not militaristic at all. Industrialised and advanced, sure.

We also know for a fact that the MAN had a few cruisers and destroyers up until a few years ago. They only began the build up of spider ships around 1919. They can't have that many ships because the rules of the HV dictate the pace of construction of each system be only so much. It will depend on how much time they are given to build and I don't expect more than 5-10 years.

I understand what you are saying and yield to its logic. But for sake of wanting to have an enemy with some real teeth, I hope you are wrong. At any rate, how can you not expect Darius to be immensely more powerful. They were withholding tech. For who? And there is the missing LDs, and the missing Sharks and the missing Ghosts and the missing ... And it certainly makes strategic sense not to unveil any further tech before its time.

However, do note that Grayson threw all building estimates out the window. And because of Darius' unusual social dynamics and classified economy, you should allow for the fact that Darius' build rates might vastly outperform and throw - yet again, similarly - even Grayson's build rates out the window.

About this idea of Darius not being a militarized system. That could simply mean that the entire population is never exposed to that side of Darius. Sheltered from the storms of reality, if you will. Because the best way to ensure complete and utter indoctrination is for the indoctrinated to actually believe certain truths. Take for instance, O'Hanrahan. She believes in her Alignment because she is only exposed to a certain part of it. Out of sight, out of mind.

It could also mean that the planet itself is free from the militaristic matters of rebellion, social unrest, rioting, looting, coups, terrorist actions ...

tlb wrote:PS: They are not all Alphas, there are also Betas and Gammas.

penny wrote:Do also realize, IINM, they are all equal as far as intelligence.

tlb wrote:How do you know that they are all equal in intelligence? That seems highly unlikely. We also have no idea how that compares to the better officers of the Grand Alliance; after all there are genies outside the Onion that also have had their intelligence enhanced.

penny wrote:I seem to recall a conversation between Albrecht and someone about how, IINM, the IQ is the same. But the Beta and the Gammas are pretty much guinea pigs for any new research. And only after it has proved itself in the Beta and Gamma lines will it be passed upstream. IOW, the Beta and Gamma lines are essentially filters, sieves, that filter out any faults. That is not to say that they are equal in the number of accoutrements. In fact, I think I remember a conversation saying that some options are only passed upstream; to the chagrin of Betas and Gammas. But I do not think those options have anything to do with IQ.

I think that the following texts from Torch of Freedom prove my point:

Chapter 5 wrote:Both of them, Jack knew without false modesty, were definitely on the bright side, even for Mesan alpha lines, but Zachariah's talent as a synthesizer had come as something of a surprise. That could still happen, of course, even for someone whose genetic structure and talents had been as carefully designed as the McBryde genome's. However much the Long-Range Planning Board might dislike admitting it, the complex of abilities, skills, and talents tied up in the general concept of "intelligence" remained the least amenable to its manipulation. Oh, they could guarantee high general IQs, and Jack couldn't remember the last representative of one of the Alignment's alpha lines who wouldn't have tested well up into the ninety-ninth-plus percentile of the human race. But the LRPB's efforts to preprogram an individual's actual skill set was problematical at best. In fact, he was always a little amused by the LRPB's insistence that it was just about to break through that last, lingering barrier to its ability to fully uplift the species.

Although they are talking about the goal of developing a math genius here, the words seem to be about general intelligence:

Chapter 6 wrote:"For the past few decades, we seem to have been hitting a wall in one of our in vitro alpha lines," Fabre had continued. "We've identified the potential for what amounts to an intuitive mathematical genius, and we've been attempting to bring that potential into full realization. I realize both of you are extraordinarily gifted mathematicians in your own rights. For that matter, both of you test well up into the genius range in that area. The reason I mention this is that we believe the potential for this particular genome represents an intuitive mathematical ability which would be at least an order of magnitude greater than your own. Obviously, that kind of capability would be of enormous advantage to us if only because of its consequences for the sort of work I know you two are already engaged upon. Long-term, of course, the ability to inject it into the genetic pool as a reliably replicatable trait would be of even greater value to the maturation of the species as a whole."

Herlander had glanced at Harriet for a moment and seen the mirror of his own intensely interested expression on her face. Then they'd both looked back at Fabre.

"The problem in this case," the geneticist had continued, "is that all of our efforts to date have been . . . less than fully successful, shall we say. I'll go ahead and admit that we still don't have anything like the degree of understanding we wish we had where designed levels of intelligence are concerned, despite the degree of hubris some of my own colleagues seem to feel upon occasion. Still, we feel like we're on the right track in this instance. Unfortunately, our results to date fall into three categories.

"The most frequent result is a child of about average intelligence for one of our alpha lines, which is to say substantially brighter than the vast majority of normals or even the bulk of our other star lines. That's hardly a bad result, but it's obviously not the one we're looking for, because while the child may have an interest in mathematics, there's no sign of the capability we're actually trying to enhance. Or, if it's there at all, it's at best only partially realized."

"Less often, but more often than we'd like, the result is a child who's actually below the median line for our alpha lines. Many of them would be quite suitable for a gamma line, or for that matter for the general Mesan population, but they're not remotely of the caliber we're looking for."

"And finally," her expression had turned somber, "we get a relatively small number of results where all early testing suggests the trait we're trying to bring out is present. It's in there, waiting. But there's an instability factor, as well."

This seems to indicate that the Betas might become Alphas with some improvement, that is not the case with Gammas. I do not think there is a scheme of promotion from Gamma to Beta to Alpha, because they are testing on an in vitro Alpha line; if completely successful the result will be an Alpha, if partially successful it might be demoted to Beta (which is what happened to the Bardasano line).

Note the implication is that the Gammas could have been made smarter, but to maintain the hierarchy the LRPB was happy to leave them little better than the general population. So they are the flunkies, such as the security guards or Gauls, of the Onion.

PS: Jack's thought about the Alphas is notable because it does not include the Betas or Gammas. Note also the geneticist saying the "most frequent result is a child of about average intelligence for one of our alpha lines, which is to say substantially brighter than" (snip) even the bulk of our other star lines".

penny wrote:I understand what you are saying and yield to its logic. But for sake of wanting to have an enemy with some real teeth, I hope you are wrong. At any rate, how can you not expect Darius to be immensely more powerful. They were withholding tech. For who? And there is the missing LDs, and the missing Sharks and the missing Ghosts and the missing ... And it certainly makes strategic sense not to unveil any further tech before its time.

There's a difference between what I may wish would happen to create a very climatic battle to end the series and what I think will happen based on all the clues in the text, the rules of the HV, and the hints that RFC has dropped. Those two don't align with a huge battle the likes of which you're proposing.

Instead, it seems like Darius will be powerful... but not in the military brute-force sense. In fact, none of the important battles in the HV books have been won by brute force. There were battles we've been told that were that: Third Yeltsin and the liberation of San Martin. But the ones we've followed, and in particular Honor's, have been won by strategy and intelligence. Just compare Third and Fourth Yieltsin, for example. Even in the Battle of Manticore, she won by being a better strategist.

Take also the three space battles in Uncompromising Honor. Of those, two were won by being smarter and knowing how to use one's technology (which granted was superior): the Battle of Hypatia and the Battle of the Ajay-Prime Warp Bridge. In comparison, the Battle of Sol barely happened: Honor won by showing up but even then she had to show what she could do to the SLN and yet kill barely no one.

The one battle we've got a good description of and that Honor was present that stands out from this crowd is the Battle of Galton. The GF won by overwhelming superiority of numbers and technology.

However, do note that Grayson threw all building estimates out the window. And because of Darius' unusual social dynamics and classified economy, you should allow for the fact that Darius' build rates might vastly outperform and throw - yet again, similarly - even Grayson's build rates out the window.

I could allow for that and yes, I should allow for that possibility occurring in the books. But the clues and rules appear to put severe limits on that. Grayson managed to grow that quickly because it had all of Manticore's expertise, who had already perfected the art of building those ships. The GSN officers and their enlisteds were being trained by the RMN. Darius has none of those advantages and moreover they are putting constraints on themselves by building a completely new type of ship that no one has built or operated before, and by selecting their officers from a very small pool of people too (the alphas). More on the people in the next reply.

So even though what you say is possible, within the realm of possibility, it doesn't seem likely that it will happen.

Instead, I don't think we're going to get a major battle at all. I think we're going to get several smaller but well-written ones, won by having the best strategy and tactics, the best use of one's assets. And in between battles, we'll see a lot of politics; both of which is David's forte. I expect that the espionage aspect will tone down now that Eric is no longer with us, though.

About this idea of Darius not being a militarized system. That could simply mean that the entire population is never exposed to that side of Darius. Sheltered from the storms of reality, if you will. Because the best way to ensure complete and utter indoctrination is for the indoctrinated to actually believe certain truths. Take for instance, O'Hanrahan. She believes in her Alignment because she is only exposed to a certain part of it. Out of sight, out of mind.

It could also mean that the planet itself is free from the militaristic matters of rebellion, social unrest, rioting, looting, coups, terrorist actions ...

It literally can't be "the entire population" because someone has to be working on it, unless Darius has cracked the ability to just build things with AI, but that goes counter to the rules that RFC established for the Honorverse. No Von Neumann probes multiplying and building ships out of a belt of asteroids.

No, you need people and lots of it to fuel a military. To have one like you're proposing, it would need to be massive too, especially if you consider all the subcontrators and service providers who work with the military-industrial complex. The RMN was 12 million people in 1912 and they had hundreds of capital ships and dozens of forts to man. Now, someone is going to point out that the Oyster Bay attack killed a tiny fraction of the overall population of the MBS and yet put a crimp in its war-fighting capability, so pre-empting that argument, I'll say two things: first, "single point of failure" - that if the logistics weren't that redundant, attacking the vulnerable spots can have an outsized effect. Second, that when it comes to economics, it isn't RFC's forte... so you can't expect the economics to apply to Darius either. It could go any way he wants.

tlb wrote:This seems to indicate that the Betas might become Alphas with some improvement, that is not the case with Gammas. I do not think there is a scheme of promotion from Gamma to Beta to Alpha, because they are testing on an in vitro Alpha line; if completely successful the result will be an Alpha, if partially successful it might be demoted to Beta (which is what happened to the Bardasano line).

Note the implication is that the Gammas could have been made smarter, but to maintain the hierarchy the LRPB was happy to leave them little better than the general population. So they are the flunkies, such as the security guards or Gauls, of the Onion.

PS: Jack's thought about the Alphas is notable because it does not include the Betas or Gammas. Note also the geneticist saying the "most frequent result is a child of about average intelligence for one of our alpha lines, which is to say substantially brighter than" (snip) even the bulk of our other star lines".

I take two extremely important conclusions from the passage.

First, the secret of being very good at something isn't unlocked by the Alignment at all yet. They can produce hugely intelligent people, with high IQs, but that doesn't necessarily translate to people being brilliant in their fields. They can probably make hyperspace calculations in their heads, but that doesn't mean they have the aptitude to use that information the right way. There's nothing that says that they aren't lazy either. In fact, if you add Francesca Simões and the discussions by Allison Harrington, RFC is telling us that genetic modifications very often bring unintended and ill consequences.

Add the fact that some of those nefarious consequences may be considered "feature not a bug" by the LRPB.

Second, the success rate is still very low. Again adding Francesca, it appears the major failure rate is non-negligible. That has a cascading effect on the people around them which can't be ignored either. It's also possible that the low success rate is one of those "feature not a bug" because if everyone were special, then no one would and the Detweilers definitely need to feel special.

So they have both a quality and quantity problem in the Alpha and Beta lines. And where are they going to recruit the MAN officer corp from? What's the size of this recruitment pool? Half a million people? A million? Ten million? How are they going to find the officers for the MAN and all the other projects that only Alphas would be entrusted with? They need... manpower.

I'm going to go further: they need brilliant people. If the occurrence ratio among the Alpha population is 1 in 10,000, they will have between 50 and 1000 of those in a generation. Meanwhile, the GA has a population of ~50 billion, so even with an occurrence ratio of one in a million, they'd have 50,000 of those.

Paradigm Shift


You can not judge a MAN book by GA covers. I am experiencing technical difficulties getting this point across.

penny wrote:I agree about the need to have dedicated warships. However, doctrine is going to be completely different for this navy. I suggested long ago that we cannot judge this navy by GA standards. Everything will be different.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I only agree in part. You're being hyperbolic here when you say "everything will be different." So in the same hyperbolic terms, I will agree that they will come to very different conclusions about the balance between cost and benefit. The underlying morals are different and we know the Inner Onion doesn't value very highly the lives of almost anyone, even sometimes of themselves (q.v. Albrecht's suicide).

-snip-

I am not being hyperbolic. Strategic and tactical doctrine will be entirely different for a completely invisible enemy. One can not fail to understand that it is different. But one also can not fail to understand how different. That is a mistake which has led to the RMN not protecting its rear areas and failing to initiate a higher state of readiness.

I will attempt to fill in some of the blanks to give you a better chance at survival when attacking Darius.


Some key differences


Submarine warfare represented a paradigm shift when it was first introduced. That is why it was so devastating before their prey could get back on balance. It was a completely different paradigm introduced and made possible by unprecedented tech and hardware fueling unprecedented strategy and tactics.

For example, consider this passage from TEiF.

Galton had a substantially more sophisticated FTL com capability than the SL had, so at the very least, their doctrine for their missile pods almost has to be more sophisticated than the League's was.

Exactly. Because of Galton's more sophisticated FTL com capability, their doctrine for missile pods has to be more sophisticated (different) than the SL.

Their doctrine for invisible g-torps will also be different.

A 3-second firing g-torp is a paradigm shift in and of itself.

Likewise, because their tech is completely different than the GA's, their strategy and tactical doctrine will be completely different than the GA's as well.

Let's look at some specific examples.


Rear area raids

Since surprise is a force multiplier. The MAN's stealth represents a paradigm shift in the equation determining the force needed to execute raids.

An LD vs a single impeller drive ship wins hands down if the impeller drive ship is completely oblivious to the attack.

An LD vs a picket has the same chance of success under the same conditions.

An LD vs a squadron has a chance of success if the squadron makes a mistake, is caught up in its own hubris, stupidity, or commanded by a moron like Elvis Santino. That possibility isn't possible for a single GA ship, even if the enemy squadron is commanded by a buffoon. Since many officers in the GA are not Alphas, many will make mistakes. Especially since they won't be aware they are being shadowed and ... graded.

Already the difference begins to assert itself. The MAN only needs one capital ship for rear area raids to destroy/divert enemy forces.

Behind enemy lines
You can not allow an LD to get behind your forces in-system. You can not engage an invisible ship that is using your own planet as a backdrop. You better not miss. Your missiles might hit your beloved Queen.

Intel - Scouting parties

All wars rely on intel. Scouts are deployed. Whether by SR-71 Blackbird, satellite imaging or spies, man has always needed intel on the enemy before going off all half-cocked to attack.

It is impossible to gain intel on a fortified system that is essentially invisible. Honor lost too many ships because of stealthed missile pods hidden in containers. In the old days stealth was achieved by piling shrubbery atop of your tank.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:But it isn't literally true. It can't be, because the laws of physics are the same. Ships cost money, resources, and time. People cost too (time to train, at a minimum). So there's still an equation to be solved for, to determine whether an operation with high risk of loss is still to be launched. That means there are still a lot of similarities between the doctrines.

The laws are the same, but the MAN introduces new laws that do not ordinarily come into play, and the MAN applies old laws in unprecedented ways.


Force multiplier

Invisible force = (force)²

If invisible force = g-torps, then...

(invisible-force)² = (force²)²

penny wrote:The laws are the same, but the MAN introduces new laws that do not ordinarily come into play, and the MAN applies old laws in unprecedented ways.


Force multiplier

Invisible force = (force)²

If invisible force = g-torps, then...

(invisible-force)² = (force²)²

I have no interest in arguing tactics, instead I am content to see what the author writes (which I wish would come soon soon).

I assume that you are trying to say something about force multipliers, but force squared no longer has the units of force (which is mass times acceleration). Also if it were true that:

Invisible force equals force squared

Then you are not introducing anything new by squaring both sides of the equation, when g-torps are involved.

Question: are you still intent on mounting the multi-second graser on a manned ship?

Military is always eventually facing shits in tech and tactics. The question is how long (do you have enough time and people) to adapt to them.

Submarines were one such. Eventually depth charges (and later "hedgehogs" were ways to defeat subs or drive them to the surface and sonar (as well as radar since that let you see a surfaced sub a night) let you find then. That and radio-direction finding
And aircraft.....not only could aircraft (including lighter than air ships) spot and attack subs with bombs, they also could radio the positions which both could let convoys be rerouted and let sub hunters head for the area of the targets.

Aircraft carriers....changes warfare again

Now it's missiles and drones changing the landscape and ability to strike at distance (with accuracy) and the need to create better defenses plus ways of hiding yourself from your enimies.

Exactly how the Alignment is now going to use the LD (and whatever else they have but we have not seen) is still unclear. Hammering systems infrastructure from outside the hyper limit with invisible spaceships will still work but we have also not seen anything -yet- beyond what was deployed at Beowulf. The Bolthole crew can't snap their fingers and present functing systems since they need time and more data about what they are looking for and how to look for them.

If the premise was to pick off or even obliterate the infrastructure of various fighting or trying to remain neutral in the demise of the SL though the (expected) conflict with Haven, that has been drawing away fast. Nobody was supposed to know there was some coordinated attack plan but now the knowledge -at least that there is "somebody" out there who has been working dillegently to destroy Star Nations under the cover to other aggressors. One LD can probably wreck most star systems they attack as far as orbital infrasturcter and stationary naval units (ships or forts etc) but .....how is the to be played?

The RF can't suddenly have Spiders...that would unmask then as yet another agent of The Other Guys. And who is supposed to be the "Good Alignment" now....if they are manufacturing Spider drive ships etc.

Waiting for RFC to publish

tlb wrote:Question: are you still intent on mounting the multi-second graser on a manned ship?

Yes! Don't you see? Every formidable spider has a stinger. Sometimes it is very venomous.


We all speculate that the Spider will be a glass cannon. And by the nature of its own stealth, a Spider may find itself a half light-second - or even closer like inside an opponent's underwear - away from prey. At that range, just to protect itself, it should have a devastating weapon. You are essentially in its web at a half light-second. A Spider usually goes ahead and wraps things up at that point.

You will allow the MAN to have a Spider, but you begrudge the Spider its stinger?


.

penny wrote:I understand what you are saying and yield to its logic. But for sake of wanting to have an enemy with some real teeth, I hope you are wrong. At any rate, how can you not expect Darius to be immensely more powerful. They were withholding tech. For who? And there is the missing LDs, and the missing Sharks and the missing Ghosts and the missing ... And it certainly makes strategic sense not to unveil any further tech before its time.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:There's a difference between what I may wish would happen to create a very climatic battle to end the series and what I think will happen based on all the clues in the text, the rules of the HV, and the hints that RFC has dropped. Those two don't align with a huge battle the likes of which you're proposing.

Pardon my boldness.

With total stealth technology, the rules of the HV have changed.

Drastically changed. Fatally changed. Incomprehensibly changed.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:It seems like Darius will be powerful... but not in the military brute-force sense. In fact, none of the important battles in the HV books have been won by brute force. There were battles we've been told that were that: Third Yeltsin and the liberation of San Martin. But the ones we've followed, and in particular Honor's, have been won by strategy and intelligence. Just compare Third and Fourth Yieltsin, for example. Even in the Battle of Manticore, she won by being a better strategist.

Over the years I've grown fond of my forum family, and there's little wonder I'd like all of you to be ready before attacking Darius. As of now, you are not ready, and I am trying to save you from yourselves.

Darius' brute force comes in the form of a devastating game changing [(((force-multiplier)))]

Umm ... when Honor attacked Sol, that was brute force. Honor rolled pods from Manticore to Sol. And when she hypered in-system she gave the further order for her pods, to roll pods.

The attack on Galton was also brute force.

The Second battle of Manticore was also brute force.

Apollo = brute force

Stealth is to the MA as Apollo is to brute force.

Don't you see?

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Take also the three space battles in Uncompromising Honor. Of those, two were won by being smarter and knowing how to use one's technology (which granted was superior): the Battle of Hypatia and the Battle of the Ajay-Prime Warp Bridge. In comparison, the Battle of Sol barely happened: Honor won by showing up but even then she had to show what she could do to the SLN and yet kill barely no one.

The one battle we've got a good description of and that Honor was present that stands out from this crowd is the Battle of Galton. The GF won by overwhelming superiority of numbers and technology.

See above.

Darius will win by overwhelming superiority in the tech used to support the type of war being fought. Akin to 'you can't bring a knife to a gun fight'.

However, do note that Grayson threw all building estimates out the window. And because of Darius' unusual social dynamics and classified economy, you should allow for the fact that Darius' build rates might vastly outperform and throw - yet again, similarly - even Grayson's build rates out the window.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I could allow for that and yes, I should allow for that possibility occurring in the books. But the clues and rules appear to put severe limits on that. Grayson managed to grow that quickly because it had all of Manticore's expertise, who had already perfected the art of building those ships. The GSN officers and their enlisteds were being trained by the RMN. Darius has none of those advantages and moreover they are putting constraints on themselves by building a completely new type of ship that no one has built or operated before, and by selecting their officers from a very small pool of people too (the alphas). More on the people in the next reply.

The MAN has all of the SLN's expertise AND examples of their tech. And Technodyne's. The MAN also had access to the SLN's technically superior civilian sector.

Stop spreading that misnomer! The MAN is not choosing from a very small pool of people! I will tackle tlb's post shortly. But no! That post leads to using and applying statistics incorrectly. It is a federal offense as far as digesting statistics go.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:So even though what you say is possible, within the realm of possibility, it doesn't seem likely that it will happen.

"Likely" and the Mesan Alignment just don't seem to be synonymous. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is an acquired taste I suppose. Personally I don't care for it.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:Instead, I don't think we're going to get a major battle at all. I think we're going to get several smaller but well-written ones, won by having the best strategy and tactics, the best use of one's assets. And in between battles, we'll see a lot of politics; both of which is David's forte. I expect that the espionage aspect will tone down now that Eric is no longer with us, though.

Actually, I can see the logic in this. And you may be right. I'd be the first to admit that you are if you are. But it would be boring. And I have to point out the caution sign that says "An entity centuries in the making ain't gonna just lay down. It just ain't gonna. It just ain't.

About this idea of Darius not being a militarized system. That could simply mean that the entire population is never exposed to that side of Darius. Sheltered from the storms of reality, if you will. Because the best way to ensure complete and utter indoctrination is for the indoctrinated to actually believe certain truths. Take for instance, O'Hanrahan. She believes in her Alignment because she is only exposed to a certain part of it. Out of sight, out of mind.

It could also mean that the planet itself is free from the militaristic matters of rebellion, social unrest, rioting, looting, coups, terrorist actions ...

Thinksmarkedly wrote:It literally can't be "the entire population" because someone has to be working on it, unless Darius has cracked the ability to just build things with AI, but that goes counter to the rules that RFC established for the Honorverse. No Von Neumann probes multiplying and building ships out of a belt of asteroids.

Force multiplier! Guys! The entirety of Leonard Detweiler's vision is based, at least in part, to Artificial Intelligence. And automation. If you have bred automatons. Then you have automation.

YOU MUST KNOW YOUR ENEMY

Thinksmarkedly wrote:No, you need people and lots of it to fuel a military. To have one like you're proposing, it would need to be massive too, especially if you consider all the subcontrators and service providers who work with the military-industrial complex.

So? The same for any superpower. But it seems to me that you are playing to the MA's strengths. They grow people in vats. People. They even have different lines coming off the assembly lines. They tailor the product to their own specifications. They grow people in the assembly plants and their product comes with options. You think that is a liability? And all of you accuse RFC of being slack in economics???

Thinksmarkedly wrote:The RMN was 12 million people in 1912 and they had hundreds of capital ships and dozens of forts to man. Now, someone is going to point out that the Oyster Bay attack killed a tiny fraction of the overall population of the MBS and yet put a crimp in its war-fighting capability, so pre-empting that argument, I'll say two things: first, "single point of failure" - that if the logistics weren't that redundant, attacking the vulnerable spots can have an outsized effect. Second, that when it comes to economics, it isn't RFC's forte... so you can't expect the economics to apply to Darius either. It could go any way he wants.

There you go again accusing the author of your own foibles.

tlb wrote:Question: are you still intent on mounting the multi-second graser on a manned ship?

penny wrote:Yes! Don't you see? Every formidable spider has a stinger. Sometimes it is very venomous.

We all speculate that the Spider will be a glass cannon. And by the nature of its own stealth, a Spider may find itself a half light-second - or even closer like inside an opponent's underwear - away from prey. At that range, just to protect itself, it should have a devastating weapon. You are essentially in its web at a half light-second. A Spider usually goes ahead and wraps things up at that point.

You will allow the MAN to have a Spider, but you begrudge the Spider its stinger?

Your premise is false! You are ignoring that in the "?" thread I proposed a way for Sharks and multi-second grasers to work together without endangering the ship or crew and I defended the idea against ThinksMarkedly's criticisms.

I advocate that only regular grasers be mounted on the Shark, because then you will not disclose the ship's location when its main armament explodes.

We speculate that ANY spider drive ship will be a glass cannon.