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Attacking Darius:

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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:31 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Regular warships wouldn't have been able to clear their emergence area undetected before DesDiv 265.2 "The Silver Cepheids" showed up to investigate the possible sensor ghost that was the Shark's sneaking in. Only the spider drive let them accelerate hard enough, and stealthily enough, to get outside the search pattern while still staying off Manticore's hypersensitive long range grav sensors.


BTW, this only makes sense if the gravitic arrays that detected the emergence from hyper could also detect active wedges. The Silver Cepheids took 12 hours to reach the emergence location because that's how long the signal would take to arrive at 62c. A non-GA warship pulling 400 gravities would cover 3.4 light-hours before having to shut down to hide, which is way beyond what a ship-borne sensor could hope to detect and any fleet could hope to search in reasonable time.

So they'd send someone back and get a new reading from the array, which confirms, "yes, there's a wedge and it's moving towards the inner system." That would give them a vector to search. But if whoever this was is intent on staying hidden, they'd use thrusters to move laterally. With the 12-hour delay in getting any information from the array, it's highly unlikely the Desron could catch up with the invader before the invader shut down the wedge anyway at around 17 hours, when they'd reached 0.8c.

However, this still means the defenders know someone is coming and roughly when they'll arrive.

And don't forget the other end of this attack: deceleration. If the gravitic arrays could see a wedge a light-month out, then they definitely can see one a light-day or so when the attacker decelerates to make a firing pass.

This is unlikely to be possible with thrusters. You'd need a 1.6c delta-v in thrusters to do that. And without wedges, this is rocket science and Einstein & Tsiolkovsky would like to have a word.

The problem is that this capability has never been hinted at. I suppose it's never been needed in discussion, but it still sounds like a big omission.

RFC may have decided to retcon this by dividing it by 4, as TEiF talks about light-weeks instead of light-months. With a mere 4-hour headstart (3 plus the Desron travel time), a 400-gravity ship would have travelled less than 23 light-minutes, which is far more reasonable to search. The target would be coasting at only 0.19c, trying to outrun a search of recon drones capable of over 0.5 c/hour of acceleration. In fact, inserting only a light-week out would be a better misdirection, because the defenders would far more likely conclude that there was no ship there to be found because it just translated back up to hyperspace.

And yet, if the gravitic arrays could track emergence only but not an active wedge, then penny is right that anyone could have perpetrated those attacks with wedge-drive ships, without the need for a spider.

Even without your expert analysis, kudos btw. There is still the phrase 'out of sight out of mind.' Then there is 'knowing in your head' is not synonymous with 'knowing in your heart'. We know the GA does not know in its heart what its head is telling it, or the MBS' status would be at DEFCON 2. And its rear areas would be bolstered.

At any rate and at the end of the day, when nothing was found by the Desron, just as always with humans, it is highly unlikely that the unexplained phenomena will ever be chalked up to ghosts.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by shinchane101   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:33 am

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Thanks for sharing this with us.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:55 pm

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tlb wrote:
penny wrote:I have always had a vision about Darius as far as the environment being a poster child for their genetic uplift. I may be far off there. I know that Darius is said to be a paradise.

But I have always accepted another possibility that may support both. One is that Darius contains an interesting junction itself. Manticore has the MWJ. What if Darius not only has a junction as well, but a junction with unusual characteristics.

Is it possible for a single termini of a junction to exit right back in the same system? And can that be used as a tactical advantage?

Another possibility is a single termini in Darius providing a Bolthole.

Could a system have a series of termini which has to be transited simultaneously to activate. Like the security system on a nuclear sub where both keys have to be turned simultaneously.

At any rate, I am looking for the system itself to have wrinkles we have never seen before.

A wormhole with both ends attached to the same system is like a micro-jump, except with more restrictions: such as resonance zones and the ends being at fixed positions.

A wormhole to someplace that could serve the Malign as a bolthole would be very interesting. A new spider-hole is something that I have advocated. However it would be bad if it were too close to Darius, because if Darius was captured then the end would be guarded to capture or destroy anyone trying to return.

The math and physics for wormholes is still in development, so it seems impossible to force them to behave like a security system. Also it should be impossible to arrange transition "simultaneously to activate" for ships arriving at Darius.

Are we sure there would not be less restrictions in other ways? Since it does not actually leave the system, it might not be affected by the RZ, or even be subject to the hyper limit.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 6:57 pm

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penny wrote:Are we sure there would not be less restrictions in other ways? Since it does not actually leave the system, it might not be affected by the RZ, or even be subject to the hyper limit.

Since a wormhole with two connected termini in the same system would be utterly unprecedented who can say what rules it might follow.

That said, we've no reason to suspect any kind of terminus could lack an RZ - though some RZs seem so weak as to just be annoyances once you're away from the terminus, rather that ship killers all the way to the hyper-limit (like Manticore's is)

But a RZ's danger seems to be associated with wormhole mass
ceiling (strength) rather than the length of its wormholes - With Manticore's junction having both the highest known mass ceiling and (apparently) the most dangerous RZ (despite not containing the longest known wormhole link). So, just because a hypothetical intra-system wormhole would be the shortest known doesn't mean the RZs of its two termini wouldn't be dangerous (and if they overlap that area might be especially dangerous)


As for being inside the hyper limit; I'd be surprised. But RFC hasn't, as far as I can remember, explicitly said it is impossible for any terminus to function inside the hyper limit -- But that's the impression he's given. Heck the SGC-902-36-G Wormhole Anomaly (aka 'The Twins') hints that the hyper limit may have interrupted the wormhole, breaking it in twain, with each end terminating at that system's hyper limit.
Also most termini are light hours outside the hyper limit, with the closest known termini (the aforementioned Twins) sitting precisely on the hyper limit.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:38 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:Are we sure there would not be less restrictions in other ways? Since it does not actually leave the system, it might not be affected by the RZ, or even be subject to the hyper limit.

Since a wormhole with two connected termini in the same system would be utterly unprecedented who can say what rules it might follow.

That said, we've no reason to suspect any kind of terminus could lack an RZ - though some RZs seem so weak as to just be annoyances once you're away from the terminus, rather that ship killers all the way to the hyper-limit (like Manticore's is)

But a RZ's danger seems to be associated with wormhole mass
ceiling (strength) rather than the length of its wormholes - With Manticore's junction having both the highest known mass ceiling and (apparently) the most dangerous RZ (despite not containing the longest known wormhole link). So, just because a hypothetical intra-system wormhole would be the shortest known doesn't mean the RZs of its two termini wouldn't be dangerous (and if they overlap that area might be especially dangerous)


As for being inside the hyper limit; I'd be surprised. But RFC hasn't, as far as I can remember, explicitly said it is impossible for any terminus to function inside the hyper limit -- But that's the impression he's given. Heck the SGC-902-36-G Wormhole Anomaly (aka 'The Twins') hints that the hyper limit may have interrupted the wormhole, breaking it in twain, with each end terminating at that system's hyper limit.
Also most termini are light hours outside the hyper limit, with the closest known termini (the aforementioned Twins) sitting precisely on the hyper limit.

For it to really be a tactical advantage, inside the hyper limit would do it. It would come as a surprise to the enemy.

This WH inside the hyper limit might be separate from the twins. It also might not actually be considered a WH since it goes nowhere; which would still mean the system has only twins. Perhaps once upon a time it had functioning triplets.

The mass of this WH might also be insignificant as WHs go. And since this WH goes nowhere, it may be able to sustain quicker successive transits. And there might not be a transit sickness associated with it. I am really looking for the Darius system itself to contain quite extraordinary phenomena even far beyond a system with twins.

And since it doesn't actually go anywhere, it might not even need sails!
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by tlb   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:31 pm

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penny wrote:since it doesn't actually go anywhere, it might not even need sails!

It may not go far, but that is not the same as "doesn't actually go anywhere". Also there is still the hyperspace transition, so sails will definitely be needed.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Nov 16, 2023 9:50 pm

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penny wrote:This WH inside the hyper limit might be separate from the twins. It also might not actually be considered a WH since it goes nowhere; which would still mean the system has only twins. Perhaps once upon a time it had functioning triplets.


A wormhole that goes nowhere already has a name: a black hole.

It's not something you'd want to enter, though. It goes, after all, nowhere.

The mass of this WH might also be insignificant as WHs go. And since this WH goes nowhere, it may be able to sustain quicker successive transits. And there might not be a transit sickness associated with it. I am really looking for the Darius system itself to contain quite extraordinary phenomena even far beyond a system with twins.


It's not going to happen. I wasn't kidding when I said that a superdreadnought crewed by treecats or Stilts is more likely.

Darius is a boring system. It doesn't even have a junction: it has the remote end of one. The only thing we must learn about that system and we don't know yet is just where it is in relationship to the rest of the human settlements.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:35 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:It's not going to happen. I wasn't kidding when I said that a superdreadnought crewed by treecats or Stilts is more likely.

Darius is a boring system. It doesn't even have a junction: it has the remote end of one. The only thing we must learn about that system and we don't know yet is just where it is in relationship to the rest of the human settlements.

Do we actually know the terminus is located in the Darius system?

Or could it be like the Lynx terminus, in a nearby and otherwise useless system, and so just carrying the name of the nearest inhabited / interesting system?
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:21 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Do we actually know the terminus is located in the Darius system?

Or could it be like the Lynx terminus, in a nearby and otherwise useless system, and so just carrying the name of the nearest inhabited / interesting system?


Right, it could be like the "Lynx" terminus which is 4 light-years from Lynx. No, we haven't been told one way or another, not that I can recall.

In that case, yes, Darius could also be a "junction" in the same way that Matapan is also a "junction" connecting the Manticore Junction and the Asgard Junction, or how the Phoenix Cluster's "junction" connects the MWHJ's Hennesy terminus with the Erewhon Junction's Terre Haute terminus, which in turn could be a "junction" with the Congo-Twins Wormhole. For that matter, the Warner-Mannerheim Warp Bridge is only 12 light-years from the Felix Junction, so those two are could also be considered a "junction" alongside the Sarduchi-Włocłæwek Warp Bridge, which is also less than a week's travel from Warner. We don't know how far Włocławek is from Talbott Quadrant border systems like Montana, but it might be close enough that the GA can get to Warner very quickly from from termini.

Anyway, having a wormhole within a few light-years or a week travel does not offer a tactical advantage during battle. It does offer a strategic advantage in moving ships, cargo, and information.

I don't expect Darius to be such a case, though. The chance that there is another wormhole near Darius leading back to settled space is actually a liability to Darius and the MAlign, because it could mean it gets discovered from the other end, creating a backdoor into their hidey-hole. If instead it's a wormhole leading to unexplored space... well, then it offers an escape for the Detweilers, but no strategic advantage in fighting the GA.
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Re: Attacking Darius:
Post by penny   » Fri Nov 17, 2023 9:18 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:This WH inside the hyper limit might be separate from the twins. It also might not actually be considered a WH since it goes nowhere; which would still mean the system has only twins. Perhaps once upon a time it had functioning triplets.


A wormhole that goes nowhere already has a name: a black hole.

It's not something you'd want to enter, though. It goes, after all, nowhere.

FYI. It is speculated in some scientific circles that a black hole emerges in another universe. The whole conservation of mass and energy thing.
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