Honorverse ramblings and musings

Duckk wrote:My job is in the automotive suspensions area, so I'm quite aware of the need to dampen body vibrations. What you're describing is a system level effect - engine placement and frequency set against the chassis' particular attributes, of which the door is just one part of.

The point of my question is you seem to be drawing a correlation between two unrelated systems simply because they were mentioned in text. There's nothing in text which says they are related in any way, any more than, say, Nike's swimming pool is.

Not quite drawing a correlation rather than considering the failure in conjunction with the implementation of new technology in the overall structure of the ship. Many of us don't believe in coincidences. Until proven innocent, they are suspect.

Totally unrelated systems, yes. However, some of the failures of the early jet engines proved to be acerbated by unrelated systems traced back to the airframe which could produce many of the previously mentioned problems.

I was merely attempting to rule out problems introduced from any altered structural dynamics, significantly changed under load, comparatively. Which could have manifested itself in unforeseen ways during workout trials.

I don't understand the difference in the new materials that were being incorporated into the airframes of cutting edge jets that were trying to break speed records inevitably affecting their engines, being any different than newer technologies and materials being implemented into the structure of an Honorverse ship affecting the engine compartment. Same concept lest I'm asleep at the wheel.

cthia wrote:
It's just that, considering how much combat power Fearless lost when they raped her, I always wondered why Hemphill didn't move up to the next largest platform that operated as a singleton. To offset some of the firepower lost.

Wouldn't a BC have been a better test bed for her little project? At least in Hemphill's mind. Although it may be argued that a smaller platform could remain stealthed long enough to pull off that one-trick pony. But that wouldn't have figured in Hemphill's original conception -- she seemed to be completely oblivious to it being a one-trick pony.

Late Edit:
Cake? She always got the cake assignments -- if you were an officer and equated cake with non-boring fun. She just never got any icing on it. In fact, they intentionally removed a lot of the icing when they raped Fearless.

The Homer Class BCs already had Grav lances and ETs, as did several Capitol ship classes. The Fearless CL wasn’t a test of the Grav lance, but of the doctrine of it in a small platform.

Duckk wrote:You're attributing far too much ignorance and/or malice to Hemphill. She was fully aware of Fearless' shortcomings.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/37/1

As far as Fearless' function in her scheme of things, she regarded the ship purely as a technological and tactical testbed. Honor's initial success against Sebastian D'Orville's flagship delighted Hemphill, because it appeared to be a vindication -- finally! -- of her determination to find technological ways account of long-standing tactical impasses. When it turned out that her brainchild didn't work if the other side knew it was coming, she got angry, and her anger showed in her communications with Honor. Her anger was even more intense because of the fact that things had looked so good in Honor's first ambush scenario. It was possibly unprofessional of her to allow that anger to show, and especially to make Honor feel that it was directed at her, but Hemphill did not ask to have Honor sent to Basilisk. In fact, she wasn't consulted at all. And if she had been consulted, she would have pointed out that the Fearless conversion had been carried out as part of a test program and that the test had not been a success. She would not have advocated [assigning] Fearless to a duty station where there was the least possibility of the ship being called to action. Now, she didn't protest the ship's deployment to Basilisk or argue that the ship must immediately be withdrawn from active duty and either restored to its original configuration (not going to happen; Fearless was chosen in the first place because her small size, age, and limited utility had her earmarked for disposal but she was large enough to serve as a testbed for the notion of a cruiser-mounted gravity lance) or immediately scrapped. Arguably, she should have. And practical reality, however, the decision was properly up to the people who had authorized the test exercise in the first place, which happened to be Edward Janacek's Admiralty. In fact, the officer who should have insisted that Fearless be withdrawn from service with her proper armament was undoubtedly First Space Lord Webster… who didn't. He horse-traded with Janacek, instead. Why? Because he didn't actually expect anything untoward to happen on Basilisk station, either. And he had other priorities rather than worrying about one, obsolete light cruiser which would certainly be scrapped at the end of its present commission, anyway. Indeed, he might actually have thought that allowing Honor to retain her command, even in Basilisk, would have been kinder than informing her that her ship was to be immediately scrapped. In short, Sonja Hemphill is not the appropriate person to blame for the fact that Fearless was committed to a combat situation with the armament she carried at the time. She is the appropriate person to blame -- or credit -- for the fact that Fearless had that armament, but, again, she never contemplated the ship's being used as anything but a testbed, unless, of course, the weapons combination have proved a brilliant success. Which she was quite well aware by the end of the fleet exercise it had not.

Well, thanks for reminding me that Honor was also given a ship that should have been shuttling meals to the Senior Citizens wards of other planets.

I remember that infodump. And I acknowledged that Fearless' size could have played a part in her being selected for the "mission."

But my point was not to trash Hemphill. My respect for her has grown exponentially. She has adequately explained herself.

I'm just saying that she seemed to think of her weapon as main armament. I'm saying that I feel it should have been incorporated on a warship such as a BC, who could still fight a good fight, yet have a secret weapon in reserve. Belying any need to hide in stealth, hoping to get a shot. I just think the potential of the grav lance was tactically overlooked. Tactically. Wouldn't the fact that a ship had a grav lance be a shock to an opponent when the two closed for an energy weapon battle?

Substitute a BC platform as Fearless against the Q-ship with a grav lance.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
It's just that, considering how much combat power Fearless lost when they raped her, I always wondered why Hemphill didn't move up to the next largest platform that operated as a singleton. To offset some of the firepower lost.

Wouldn't a BC have been a better test bed for her little project? At least in Hemphill's mind. Although it may be argued that a smaller platform could remain stealthed long enough to pull off that one-trick pony. But that wouldn't have figured in Hemphill's original conception -- she seemed to be completely oblivious to it being a one-trick pony.

Late Edit:
Cake? She always got the cake assignments -- if you were an officer and equated cake with non-boring fun. She just never got any icing on it. In fact, they intentionally removed a lot of the icing when they raped Fearless.

The Homer Class BCs already had Grav lances and ETs, as did several Capitol ship classes. The Fearless CL wasn’t a test of the Grav lance, but of the doctrine of it in a small platform.

Oops. I saw this too late or I would have altered my previous post, being unaware that any other ship had the grav lance.

If that is true, it seems they should have saved the bacon of quite a few BCs under the right conditions.

cthia wrote:If that is true, it seems they should have saved the bacon of quite a few BCs under the right conditions.

Ok, tell me what the right circumstances are?

cthia wrote:If that is true, it seems they should have saved the bacon of quite a few BCs under the right conditions.

Problem is that after the widespread introduction of the laser head, those conditions were very unlikely to reappear. When combat is decisive over several lightminutes, a weapon that is only effective at under 100000 km is a waste of tonnage and space.

The E wrote:

cthia wrote:If that is true, it seems they should have saved the bacon of quite a few BCs under the right conditions.

Problem is that after the widespread introduction of the laser head, those conditions were very unlikely to reappear. When combat is decisive over several lightminutes, a weapon that is only effective at under 100000 km is a waste of tonnage and space.

Too true, in HoS, no capitol ship, nor the Homer, is listed with a Gravlance or the ETs, while their 1905 listings in the semi-canonical Jayne's and SITS have them. We already know that HoS only shows the weapons fit of the latest ship refit in May 1921, So it stands to reason that the ETs and Grav lances were pulled due to lack of use.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:If that is true, it seems they should have saved the bacon of quite a few BCs under the right conditions.

Ok, tell me what the right circumstances are?

You mean show you one other right condition other than what transpired with Fearless?

When closing to energy range with a maimed, much larger opponent such as an SD where you still can't do much damage because its sidewalls are still intact but it has sustained enough damage of its own that its offensive capabilities are limited -- missiles shot dry. But a few energy weapons are operational. And your accel has fallen to where an SD may have the accel advantage.

Also, a BC with a grav lance that has reached energy range could sacrifice itself killing the wedge of several other larger units for your force who's hanging back to finish what you started.

Saganami could have used a grav lance in his situation.

An SD with operable grazers will blow a BC into very small pieces before it reaches 100,000 km range. IIRC, the SD will start to get hits at 500,000 km and effective range is about 300,000 km against the BCs sidewall.

kzt wrote:An SD with operable grazers will blow a BC into very small pieces before it reaches 100,000 km range. IIRC, the SD will start to get hits at 500,000 km and effective range is about 300,000 km against the BCs sidewall.

A BC reaching energy range because it was shielded in behind a wall and enemy fire was too busy targeting bigger threats.

Or when you're outnumbered, yet reaching energy range of several similar sized ships.