Honorverse ramblings and musings

Slavery and what we are told and taught about slavery. It depends on where and when you are.
Which country in the world hasn't had slavery at some time? Sure, you can find some but read you history.
The truly massive amount of ink and air are and have been spent talking about slavery in the US before 1865 and the political use of that history is mostly what you get now because it is so very useful- in politics and gaining political power. Too bad all the people who actualy owned slaves (then) or were slaves or were involved in any part of the economic system that touches slavery have been DEAD for what, at least 70 years (including babies born in 1865) Way too usefull a topic to use.

Want history? Slavery in Britain from before the Roman times there right up to the point where England stopped slavery....at home and did anti-slavery work with the Navy but then you had this little problem with the "former" slaves as free workers in the plantations in the other colonies and....well, they were not "slaves".
Rome? Greece? Persia, India, All that pre-Roman Europe? Asia? How about post-Roman Europe into the Middle Ages. The Native American (variious) practices of taking captives, how noble....

Bible anyone? Pharaonic Egypt? The entire Anciet Middle East and down into Africa well before anybody (that we have records for) was shipping Africans (or criminals or inconvenient poor) to the Americas. We probably shouldn't talk about Spain and the "New World", if you can't catch the locals, ship slaves in from somewhere else.

As The E has noted, Darius is a population in a bottle, very closely held, cultivated, taught and molded to fit the social form designed for it. Interesting he should mention the English and Indian cast systems in the same sentence, that is quite the same general idea of place in society. Darius is carrying it to one "logical" extreem. Look at the so many other political or religious power and societal structures. God (in Heaven or his representative (spiritual or actual human dependent) on top in the one case or the political/military/"social" leadership on another case. Shortly you get down to all those "little people" who often are not considered "people" at all who may be very good and talented at doing what is required of them but who really really really need to stay "down" there at the bottom to support and serve the leaders.
The Alignment as gods, no need to make it a formal religion and actualy call them gods or the Divine Leaders, just the Natual Order of things

Ok, way too cynical.....but that doesn't make it incorrect as to what has gone on.

Just a thought....nobody is broadcasting anything into Darius. Bringing in contraban political or religious tracts or stuff the Alignment doesn't want the manufactured class (what on Mesa would be genetic slave/artificaly engineered or children of Seccies) to read or watch or think about perhaps but no outside broadcasts. If Darius is 20, 40 or 200 LY from anywhere, and nobody outside the Alighment even knows it exists let alone where it is, there isn't going to be any electromagnetic transmission of "external" political, religious or social thought coming in on whatever frequencies the don't-know-they-are-slaves get on communications channels.

Pehaps someone will come up for a name for a Darius type unrealizing slave.

cthia wrote:Is it? I'll only go so far as to agree that that's probably the intention and perception of things by the 'Onion' but is it really? I seriously question it. A completely controlled society would have to bear some semblance to a 'completely closed' society which would infer the absolute prevention of 'any' traffic in or out of Darius. Since we know the military breaks that, then... How many other ways does the military and human nature break that perception?

The E wrote:
The military is very small, and the part of it that gets sent out into the larger world is compelled to stay under EMCON for the duration of their missions. Think about WW2 submarines: All news from the outside world are filtered through the comms officer and his staff; there just aren't that many chances for unfiltered news to get through (and even if they do, they get filtered through the ideological lenses of Alignment culture).

cthia wrote:It sounds a lot like Radio Free Europe. There wasn't such a successful time in those attempts at filtering the 'radio waves.' Now I know the situation is radically different, the outsider universe isn't aware of Darius, yet all members are aware of the outside world.

The E wrote:
Only in terms of what the (Alignment-controlled) media present. It's highly unlikely that equipment sensitive enough to capture lightspeed transmissions from other systems are in private hands.

cthia wrote:Moreover, to be a fair comparison, your statement would have to be altered as such...

They'll be as emotionally attached to their nation as the average slaves were to the US.

In which case, they weren't very attached at all. Unless you really think that the slaves in America were emotionally attached to the US? Fat chance of that.

The E wrote:
I think you're using a wrong mental model for Dariusian society. You begin with the statement "Most of Darius' population is composed of genetic slaves", apply the american conception of slavery, and then wonder how it works given that the american model has been proven to be unworkable.

But that's not what's happening, I believe. We already know that the population of Darius is better off than Slaves elsewhere. We also know that the Alignment has been able to keep it stable for centuries. What that tells me is that this society isn't actually founded on slavery.
The actual model to follow here is something like the UK or India; societies with very strict caste systems. We know that those are incredibly stable (especially if outside influences are reduced to a minimum) and quickly become self-reinforcing.
The people growing up in those systems have as much loyalty to their country as those of any other system; The assumption that they'd be less loyal "because they're slaves" only holds if the people involved see themselves as slaves. Which the population of Darius is unlikely to do.

Ask yourself this: What sort of stories do the people on Darius tell themselves? What's the archetypical Darius coming-of-age story about? It's probably not going to be the classic Hero's Journey type stuff (which both in its male and female versions is all about striking out on your own and finding happiness in creating a new family or a new life away from the places you grew up in), it's more likely to be about finding happiness in the roles fate has assigned to you.

Consider this: Honor Harrington is the ultimate proof that the Alignment is right. She's the daughter of one of Beowulf's oldest line of geneticists and a preeminent neurosurgeon and decorated military officer, she's saved hundreds if not thousands of people from slavery at the hands of the natural born people of the galaxy, she rose through the ranks and gained high authority as anyone with her lineage should. If the people on Darius know about her, that's the story they'll hear: A story of Beowulfan hypocrisy (because noone can be expected to believe that the Beowulfans are that brilliant without some augmentation) and about the fears of the naturalborn keeping the perfected ones from their rightful place.
It doesn't take a lot to twist the stories about Honor into a brilliant proof that the Alignment's idea of how humanity should work is correct.

cthia wrote:Hard to believe that they aren't aware of significant differences in their state of life and that of non-slaves. They aren't living in a bottle. How can they not be aware of differences in lifestyle, opportunities and stature?

Whatever the definition of their role in the population is - by definition it is certainly exclusive and prohibitive and therefore a clear demarcation.

The E wrote:
They are living in a bottle. They also aren't americans. Forgive me for saying this, but you are far too american to really, viscerally understand this. You're living in a society that is built on the idea that there are no glass ceilings, that anyone can rise to any position if they set their mind to it. For someone who grew up in that mindset (and with all the reinforcement of it through pop culture), living in a caste system is unbearable; The idea that there are things you can't do because of the circumstances of your birth is unthinkable.
But on Darius, those memes never had a real foothold. There, everyone has their assigned place in society; people accept that everyone is born with innate talents for a particular job where they will excel, and that trying to play a different role will likely end in disaster. In America, it's better to be a factory owner than a factory worker; the worker aspires to be the foreman or the owner someday. On Darius, the worker knows that he's the best at his role, and he knows and accepts that the guy in charge is the best in his role.

I think the big mistake you're making is assuming that Darius is just like a modern first-world country, just with slavery mixed in; that their value systems are the same as our value systems and that their culture promotes the same ideas ours does. I don't think that's what's happening though; If it did, the internal contradictions would tear that society apart very quickly.

****** *

"I'm too American?" Not a chance. I have traveled extensively from the year I was born. My family insists that much of one's education is gathered from interacting with other cultures. Many of my friends are hard working families from poor countries. My American self is well tempered.



Your chosen model of reference highlights my point for me. The caste systems are replete with all sorts of problems. Problems that manifest because of that same, over-abundant, recurrent theme behind the point I've been trying to make - the human element. Genies - slaves or no - at day's end, are all people. And people operate within certain norms.

The caste system resulted in lots of evils because of its rigid rules. Society was divided into strict compartments and those belonging to higher castes exploited the lower-caste people. A person born in one caste was doomed to remain in it forever.

The Shudras and untouchables had to perform all the menial tasks. They could not do anything to make things better for themselves. Worse, they could not even think of anything better for their own children who remained slaves or bonded labourers.

This rigidity affected all the sections of society. A Brahmin with the qualities of a warrior could not take up the profession of a Kshatriya and vice versa.
As for a Shudra, even if one was intelligent and aspired to study there was no scope for him or her at all. They could not even touch a holy book or enter a temple.
Thus, there was no freedom of choice for anyone.

Initiative and enterprise was suppressed and the progress of the country was severely hampered. People could not marry out of their caste or even eat with people belonging to lower-castes as social mixing was severely restricted.
People remained confined to their own castes and were not exposed to different ideas and ways of thought. Thus, their thinking also became narrow and limited. This also led to separatism. People only thought of the welfare of their own castes and not that of the society as a whole.
These caste prejudices still plague our society and even become influential factors at the time of elections.

Politicians encourage and exploit these attitudes for their own gains. Discrimination against lower-castes is widely prevalent and has kept a large percentage of our population backward. In this way, the development of our country has been hampered.

http://www.preservearticles.com/2010122 ... ystem.html

Human element prods people to look down on those lower than themselves. There is no sense of greater good. Altruism doesn't leap out of the average person. Caste-prejudice and subjugation would be prevalent. That in itself would highlight and exacerbate the political and inhumane lines of demarcation. Intelligence is NOT bound. People that are born slaves (a caste of sorts) are not exempt from being born with highly intelligent minds. What happens when someone who is born a slave is also born with the mind of an Einstein or a Warshawski? What happens when a slave and an 'Onion' falls in love? You cannot separate and divide intelligence and feelings. People, yes, but the superior mind has needs. Needs that cannot be subjugated, castrated or casted. Life inevitably finds a way.

Real life is not like a painting - where you can rely on the individual colors to remain within the boundaries established by the lines of the drawings. Real color runs!

All of the above is conspiring to mortally wound the caste system even today. I suspect, that in time, the caste systems will fall like the walls of Berlin.

In essence, what I am assuming is that people continue to remain human - even if genetically augmented.

cthia wrote:Is it? I'll only go so far as to agree that that's probably the intention and perception of things by the 'Onion' but is it really? I seriously question it. A completely controlled society would have to bear some semblance to a 'completely closed' society which would infer the absolute prevention of 'any' traffic in or out of Darius. Since we know the military breaks that, then... How many other ways does the military and human nature break that perception?

The E wrote:The military is very small, and the part of it that gets sent out into the larger world is compelled to stay under EMCON for the duration of their missions. Think about WW2 submarines: All news from the outside world are filtered through the comms officer and his staff; there just aren't that many chances for unfiltered news to get through (and even if they do, they get filtered through the ideological lenses of Alignment culture).

cthia wrote:It sounds a lot like Radio Free Europe. There wasn't such a successful time in those attempts at filtering the 'radio waves.' Now I know the situation is radically different, the outsider universe isn't aware of Darius, yet all members are aware of the outside world.

The E wrote:Only in terms of what the (Alignment-controlled) media present. It's highly unlikely that equipment sensitive enough to capture lightspeed transmissions from other systems are in private hands.

cthia wrote:Moreover, to be a fair comparison, your statement would have to be altered as such...

They'll be as emotionally attached to their nation as the average slaves were to the US.

In which case, they weren't very attached at all. Unless you really think that the slaves in America were emotionally attached to the US? Fat chance of that.

The E wrote:I think you're using a wrong mental model for Dariusian society. You begin with the statement "Most of Darius' population is composed of genetic slaves", apply the american conception of slavery, and then wonder how it works given that the american model has been proven to be unworkable.

But that's not what's happening, I believe. We already know that the population of Darius is better off than Slaves elsewhere. We also know that the Alignment has been able to keep it stable for centuries. What that tells me is that this society isn't actually founded on slavery.
The actual model to follow here is something like the UK or India; societies with very strict caste systems. We know that those are incredibly stable (especially if outside influences are reduced to a minimum) and quickly become self-reinforcing.
The people growing up in those systems have as much loyalty to their country as those of any other system; The assumption that they'd be less loyal "because they're slaves" only holds if the people involved see themselves as slaves. Which the population of Darius is unlikely to do.

Ask yourself this: What sort of stories do the people on Darius tell themselves? What's the archetypical Darius coming-of-age story about? It's probably not going to be the classic Hero's Journey type stuff (which both in its male and female versions is all about striking out on your own and finding happiness in creating a new family or a new life away from the places you grew up in), it's more likely to be about finding happiness in the roles fate has assigned to you.

Consider this: Honor Harrington is the ultimate proof that the Alignment is right. She's the daughter of one of Beowulf's oldest line of geneticists and a preeminent neurosurgeon and decorated military officer, she's saved hundreds if not thousands of people from slavery at the hands of the natural born people of the galaxy, she rose through the ranks and gained high authority as anyone with her lineage should. If the people on Darius know about her, that's the story they'll hear: A story of Beowulfan hypocrisy (because noone can be expected to believe that the Beowulfans are that brilliant without some augmentation) and about the fears of the naturalborn keeping the perfected ones from their rightful place.
It doesn't take a lot to twist the stories about Honor into a brilliant proof that the Alignment's idea of how humanity should work is correct.

cthia wrote:Hard to believe that they aren't aware of significant differences in their state of life and that of non-slaves. They aren't living in a bottle. How can they not be aware of differences in lifestyle, opportunities and stature?

Whatever the definition of their role in the population is - by definition it is certainly exclusive and prohibitive and therefore a clear demarcation.

The E wrote:They are living in a bottle. They also aren't americans. Forgive me for saying this, but you are far too american to really, viscerally understand this. You're living in a society that is built on the idea that there are no glass ceilings, that anyone can rise to any position if they set their mind to it. For someone who grew up in that mindset (and with all the reinforcement of it through pop culture), living in a caste system is unbearable; The idea that there are things you can't do because of the circumstances of your birth is unthinkable.
But on Darius, those memes never had a real foothold. There, everyone has their assigned place in society; people accept that everyone is born with innate talents for a particular job where they will excel, and that trying to play a different role will likely end in disaster. In America, it's better to be a factory owner than a factory worker; the worker aspires to be the foreman or the owner someday. On Darius, the worker knows that he's the best at his role, and he knows and accepts that the guy in charge is the best in his role.

I think the big mistake you're making is assuming that Darius is just like a modern first-world country, just with slavery mixed in; that their value systems are the same as our value systems and that their culture promotes the same ideas ours does. I don't think that's what's happening though; If it did, the internal contradictions would tear that society apart very quickly.

****** *

"I'm too American?" Not a chance. I have traveled extensively from the year I was born. My family insists that much of one's education is gathered from interacting with other cultures. Many of my friends are hard working families from poor countries. My American self is well tempered.



Your chosen model of reference highlights my point for me. The caste systems are replete with all sorts of problems. Problems that manifest because of that same, over-abundant, recurrent theme behind the point I've been trying to make - the human element. Genies - slaves or no - at day's end, are all people. And people operate within certain norms.

The caste system resulted in lots of evils because of its rigid rules. Society was divided into strict compartments and those belonging to higher castes exploited the lower-caste people. A person born in one caste was doomed to remain in it forever.

The Shudras and untouchables had to perform all the menial tasks. They could not do anything to make things better for themselves. Worse, they could not even think of anything better for their own children who remained slaves or bonded labourers.

This rigidity affected all the sections of society. A Brahmin with the qualities of a warrior could not take up the profession of a Kshatriya and vice versa.
As for a Shudra, even if one was intelligent and aspired to study there was no scope for him or her at all. They could not even touch a holy book or enter a temple.
Thus, there was no freedom of choice for anyone.

Initiative and enterprise was suppressed and the progress of the country was severely hampered. People could not marry out of their caste or even eat with people belonging to lower-castes as social mixing was severely restricted.
People remained confined to their own castes and were not exposed to different ideas and ways of thought. Thus, their thinking also became narrow and limited. This also led to separatism. People only thought of the welfare of their own castes and not that of the society as a whole.
These caste prejudices still plague our society and even become influential factors at the time of elections.

Politicians encourage and exploit these attitudes for their own gains. Discrimination against lower-castes is widely prevalent and has kept a large percentage of our population backward. In this way, the development of our country has been hampered.

http://www.preservearticles.com/2010122 ... ystem.html

Human element prods people to look down on those lower than themselves. There is no sense of greater good. Altruism doesn't leap out of the average person. Caste-prejudice and subjugation would be prevalent. That in itself would highlight and exacerbate the political and inhumane lines of demarcation. Intelligence is NOT bound. People that are born slaves (a caste of sorts) are not exempt from being born with highly intelligent minds. What happens when someone who is born a slave is also born with the mind of an Einstein or a Warshawski? What happens when a slave and an 'Onion' falls in love? You cannot separate and divide intelligence and feelings. People, yes, but the superior mind has needs. Needs that cannot be subjugated, castrated or casted. Life inevitably finds a way.

Real life is not like a painting - where you can rely on the individual colors to remain within the boundaries established by the lines of the drawings. Real color runs!

All of the above is conspiring to mortally wound the caste system even today. I suspect, that in time, the caste systems will fall like the walls of Berlin.

In essence, what I am assuming is that people continue to remain human - even if genetically augmented.

Grapevines are a prolific form of communication. They are totally invasive. Honor Harrington was continually stunned that her reputation had preceded her to all corners of the galaxy.

cthia wrote:Grapevines are a prolific form of communication. They are totally invasive. Honor Harrington was continually stunned that her reputation had preceded her to all corners of the galaxy.

And they are the only known method of communication (among human beings) that are faster than light.

cthia wrote:"I'm too American?" Not a chance. I have traveled extensively from the year I was born. My family insists that much of one's education is gathered from interacting with other cultures. Many of my friends are hard working families from poor countries. My American self is well tempered.

No, it's not. You may have been in contact with many cultures, it doesn't matter. Your thinking on this matter is coloured by a distinctly american outlook on life, and so the idea of a functioning collectivist, highly stratified society is completely alien to you.

Your chosen model of reference highlights my point for me. The caste systems are replete with all sorts of problems. Problems that manifest because of that same, over-abundant, recurrent theme behind the point I've been trying to make - the human element. Genies - slaves or no - at day's end, are all people. And people operate within certain norms.

Except we are talking about a completely engineered society here. One where the population is completely engineered as well on the genetic level.

You are, again, assuming that the people of Darius are recognizably american in outlook. They very likely aren't.

The caste system resulted in lots of evils because of its rigid rules. Society was divided into strict compartments and those belonging to higher castes exploited the lower-caste people. A person born in one caste was doomed to remain in it forever.

The Shudras and untouchables had to perform all the menial tasks. They could not do anything to make things better for themselves. Worse, they could not even think of anything better for their own children who remained slaves or bonded labourers.

This rigidity affected all the sections of society. A Brahmin with the qualities of a warrior could not take up the profession of a Kshatriya and vice versa.
As for a Shudra, even if one was intelligent and aspired to study there was no scope for him or her at all. They could not even touch a holy book or enter a temple.
Thus, there was no freedom of choice for anyone.

Initiative and enterprise was suppressed and the progress of the country was severely hampered. People could not marry out of their caste or even eat with people belonging to lower-castes as social mixing was severely restricted.
People remained confined to their own castes and were not exposed to different ideas and ways of thought. Thus, their thinking also became narrow and limited. This also led to separatism. People only thought of the welfare of their own castes and not that of the society as a whole.
These caste prejudices still plague our society and even become influential factors at the time of elections.

Politicians encourage and exploit these attitudes for their own gains. Discrimination against lower-castes is widely prevalent and has kept a large percentage of our population backward. In this way, the development of our country has been hampered.

http://www.preservearticles.com/2010122 ... ystem.html

Human element prods people to look down on those lower than themselves. There is no sense of greater good. Altruism doesn't leap out of the average person. Caste-prejudice and subjugation would be prevalent. That in itself would highlight and exacerbate the political and inhumane lines of demarcation. Intelligence is NOT bound. People that are born slaves (a caste of sorts) are not exempt from being born with highly intelligent minds. What happens when someone who is born a slave is also born with the mind of an Einstein or a Warshawski? What happens when a slave and an 'Onion' falls in love? You cannot separate and divide intelligence and feelings. People, yes, but the superior mind has needs. Needs that cannot be subjugated, castrated or casted. Life inevitably finds a way.

Repeat after me: Engineered society. Assume for a minute that the Alignment can read a history book too, and draw conclusions from it.

Real life is not like a painting - where you can rely on the individual colors to remain within the boundaries established by the lines of the drawings. Real color runs!

All of the above is conspiring to mortally wound the caste system even today. I suspect, that in time, the caste systems will fall like the walls of Berlin.

The biggest danger to caste systems is a steady example of there being other systems to organize a society that, to a first approximation, are more vibrant and more prosperous.

This other example does not exist for the population on Darius. The only news they get from the greater galaxy is what the Alignment tells them. For them, their way of life is the best possible. Given that, why would they believe themselves to be slaves?

In essence, what I am assuming is that people continue to remain human - even if genetically augmented.

And you'd be wrong about that.

cthia wrote:Grapevines are a prolific form of communication. They are totally invasive. Honor Harrington was continually stunned that her reputation had preceded her to all corners of the galaxy.

Wrong. She's fairly well known in the Haven quadrant, people in systems with a lot of Manticoran influence have heard about her, a couple guys in the SLN intel hierarchy know her files, but outside of that? Not a chance.

E...

You are holding on much too tightly to the "American" angle. I asure you, you are wrong about that. All of my foreign friends joke that I'm faking being an American.

Where you opine "American" substitute "human" and you'll more accurately understand me. There cannot be absolute control in these type societies. There never has been nor will be. Humanity will NOT be totally controlled. It sure looks good and functions well... on paper, only!

Engineered society. Ok, I've repeated after you. Yet, where does that infer that within an engineered society there will be absolute mind control. Perhaps one can engineer a society and perhaps even design one's probable career path, inasmuch as a career in which one is well-suited to excel. But you cannot guarantee that one will emotionally aspire to one's designated design.

Either they are human or they aren't. Lest they are mindless automatons. A notion that is highly dispelled in...

Exhibit E: ...

wiki wrote:Elaine Komandorski, better known as Georgia Sakristos and later as Lady Georgia Young, Countess North Hollow, was a former Mesan genetic slave and an important figure in Manticoran politics of the 1910s PD.

She had blue eyes. (HH4)

She was bred by Manpower Inc. slavers, but earned her freedom and her initial financial stake by selling out an entire freighter of escaped slaves for half a million Solarian credits. Her new identity as Elaine Komandorski was created in the Maya Sector of the Solarian League. Once in the Star Kingdom of Manticore, she conducted industrial espionage and blackmail, and to avoid police interest, changed her identity again to Georgia Sakristos before going to work for Dimitri Young; she was involved in the murder of a Landing City Police officer. (CS1, HH10)

She then became the Earl of North Hollow's "security consultant", though she actually worked as the "keeper" of the North Hollow files with which the Earls of North Hollow blackmailed a great many people. She was a beautiful woman who had enhanced herself with extensive cosmetic surgery. Dimitri Young promised to remove her files from the collection, but his quick and premature death[2] prevented this. She despised Dimitri's son Pavel, the 11th Earl, but with the information in the North Hollow files, he was able to keep her as the "security consultant" for the Youngs. The fact that he also used them to force her into sexual games she found sickening made her hate him even more; it was she who placed an anonymous phone call which led to exposing his role in Paul Tankersley's death at the hands of a professional duelist. She passed on the location of that duelist, Denver Summervale. (HH4)

After Pavel's death, she married his brother Stefan, becoming Lady Georgia Young. In 1920 PD, Anton Zilwicki was able to find information on her background on the planet Smoking Frog. (CS1) He and the former Countess of the Tor, Catherine Montaigne, gave her a seventy-two hour head start before informing the local police, and perhaps the Audubon Ballroom, of her identity. As instructed, she arranged for the complete destruction of the North Hollow files and left the Star Kingdom forever. She blew up the North Hollows' mansion (making it look like an Aircar fuel accident) along with the files. (HH10)

All of the intimate textev regarding slaves support that they hated their status. It is obvious that Elaine did. Paulo D'Arezzo did as well. Genetic modifications IS NOT the same as mind control.

Are the slaves existing in a completely isolated sector of the planet/system? Do they not interact with or have chance at observing non-slaves?

And of course, it can be fully counted on for the officers or civilians that do interact with the slaves to not become emotionally involved (as humans do). That thought has nothing to do with being American. And everything to do with being... human.

An aside:
Does anyone recall textev regarding Elaine's genetic "specialization?"

cthia wrote:E...

You are holding on much too tightly to the "American" angle. I asure you, you are wrong about that. All of my foreign friends joke that I'm faking being an American.

Where you opine "American" substitute "human" and you'll more accurately understand me. There cannot be absolute control in these type societies. There never has been nor will be. Humanity will NOT be totally controlled. It sure looks good and functions well... on paper, only!

Engineered society. Ok, I've repeated after you. Yet, where does that infer that within an engineered society there will be absolute mind control. Perhaps one can engineer a society and perhaps even design one's probable career path, inasmuch as a career in which one is well-suited to excel. But you cannot guarantee that one will emotionally aspire to one's designated design.

Either they are human or they aren't. Lest they are mindless automatons. A notion that is highly dispelled in...

Exhibit E: ...

wiki wrote:Elaine Komandorski, better known as Georgia Sakristos and later as Lady Georgia Young, Countess North Hollow, was a former Mesan genetic slave and an important figure in Manticoran politics of the 1910s PD.

She had blue eyes. (HH4)

She was bred by Manpower Inc. slavers, but earned her freedom and her initial financial stake by selling out an entire freighter of escaped slaves for half a million Solarian credits. Her new identity as Elaine Komandorski was created in the Maya Sector of the Solarian League. Once in the Star Kingdom of Manticore, she conducted industrial espionage and blackmail, and to avoid police interest, changed her identity again to Georgia Sakristos before going to work for Dimitri Young; she was involved in the murder of a Landing City Police officer. (CS1, HH10)

She then became the Earl of North Hollow's "security consultant", though she actually worked as the "keeper" of the North Hollow files with which the Earls of North Hollow blackmailed a great many people. She was a beautiful woman who had enhanced herself with extensive cosmetic surgery. Dimitri Young promised to remove her files from the collection, but his quick and premature death[2] prevented this. She despised Dimitri's son Pavel, the 11th Earl, but with the information in the North Hollow files, he was able to keep her as the "security consultant" for the Youngs. The fact that he also used them to force her into sexual games she found sickening made her hate him even more; it was she who placed an anonymous phone call which led to exposing his role in Paul Tankersley's death at the hands of a professional duelist. She passed on the location of that duelist, Denver Summervale. (HH4)

After Pavel's death, she married his brother Stefan, becoming Lady Georgia Young. In 1920 PD, Anton Zilwicki was able to find information on her background on the planet Smoking Frog. (CS1) He and the former Countess of the Tor, Catherine Montaigne, gave her a seventy-two hour head start before informing the local police, and perhaps the Audubon Ballroom, of her identity. As instructed, she arranged for the complete destruction of the North Hollow files and left the Star Kingdom forever. She blew up the North Hollows' mansion (making it look like an Aircar fuel accident) along with the files. (HH10)

All of the intimate textev regarding slaves support that they hated their status. It is obvious that Elaine did. Paulo D'Arezzo did as well. Genetic modifications IS NOT the same as mind control.

Are the slaves existing in a completely isolated sector of the planet/system? Do they not interact with or have chance at observing non-slaves?

And of course, it can be fully counted on for the officers or civilians that do interact with the slaves to not become emotionally involved (as humans do). That thought has nothing to do with being American. And everything to do with being... human.

An aside:
Does anyone recall textev regarding Elaine's genetic "specialization?"

You can't compare Mesan slavery with Darius slavery as they are two different animals per text ev. The Darius slaves are treated way better, live in a closed society where they do not know of areas where slavery doesn't exist and as other posters have stated are very likely in a caste society as well.

cthia wrote:Where you opine "American" substitute "human" and you'll more accurately understand me. There cannot be absolute control in these type societies. There never has been nor will be. Humanity will NOT be totally controlled. It sure looks good and functions well... on paper, only!

Your basic assumption is that there is some feeling of inequality in Darius' society, a power imbalance between those you think of as slaves and the actual movers and shakers of society; That the population of Darius chafes under an imposed order and desires to break the chains holding them.

But there is no evidence for that. The problem is that underneath it all, you assume the Alignment to be stupid. They're not. They know, just by looking at what happens on Mesa, that societies with permanent underclasses are unstable and require huge amounts of peacekeeping troops and measures.

What I am suggesting is that, on Darius, they're not doing things the Mesan way. Why would they?

Darius, in a nutshell, is the Alignments' model society. It's their model of what humanity should be like, once the restrictions of the Beowulf code are lifted. We know the Alignment is breeding people to fit better into societal roles; some lines are better at being leaders than a baseline human, some are better construction workers, thinkers, entertainers, what have you.

For the last time: The people of Darius are not baseline humans. Assuming that they would react to living in a restricted society the same way modern humans would is foolish, especially given how much expertise the alignment has in terms of behavioural modification.

For you, it is inconceivable that a society like Darius' is stable and happy. For me, there is no way it is anything else. Darius, after all, is not North Korea.

Engineered society. Ok, I've repeated after you. Yet, where does that infer that within an engineered society there will be absolute mind control. Perhaps one can engineer a society and perhaps even design one's probable career path, inasmuch as a career in which one is well-suited to excel. But you cannot guarantee that one will emotionally aspire to one's designated design.

Oh, there will probably be people who won't fit into the Alignment's design. But there wouldn't be enough to actually cause unrest; on the contrary, they act as examples that can be used to reinforce the stability of society.

All of the intimate textev regarding slaves support that they hated their status. It is obvious that Elaine did. Paulo D'Arezzo did as well. Genetic modifications IS NOT the same as mind control.

Are the slaves existing in a completely isolated sector of the planet/system? Do they not interact with or have chance at observing non-slaves?

cthia, please read those examples again. These people were bred as slaves for sale on the open market. They were never going to be part of the Darius society. They also had, since their liberation, ample exposure to more liberal ways of living.

They are, to put it succinctly, invalid examples for the discussion we're having here.

And of course, it can be fully counted on for the officers or civilians that do interact with the slaves to not become emotionally involved (as humans do). That thought has nothing to do with being American. And everything to do with being... human.

Another fundamental misunderstanding of yours. Stop assuming that the people of Darius consider themselves to be in a Slave/Slaver relationship, and start thinking about how a society could work in which the individuals living in it know for a fact that they are each born to excel in a given caste, for whom such a caste system is the natural way of living.

Remember this is the guy who thinks that 'sex slave' is just a nice way of saying 'prostitute'.