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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

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cthia wrote:I couldn't understand why the Forts never engaged. Tourville would have been kept off balance by the planetary Forts if there had been any. The Forts have a paltry 50g of acceleration which is much too slow for a tactical redeployment, but at an ETA of 3 days, that is plenty of time for a strategic redeployment.


In 3 days, the battle had been over for two and a half.

That thread brought up concerns that the Forts would invite return fire that could impact with the planet, if they engage. But what are planetary forts for if not to engage the enemy? Are they simply there to bluff? Under what conditions would planetary forts engage the enemy?


They are the last line of defence. Mind you, I don't completely agree with not firing at all. The fall out from strikes on defensive installations is on the shoulders of whoever placed the installations there in the first place (assuming the use of force by the attacker wasn't disproportionate). Therefore, if it's ok for forts to be in orbit, then it's ok for the forts to be attacked.

The question is the timing. Would the attacker (Tourville in this case) take the time to set up proper shots to take the forts out? Or would he hope to force them to surrender once he had control of the outer system?

Remember the planning that Theisman told Pritchart: the Havenites had a fleet train waiting in hyper with at least one full reload. If Tourville and Chin had been successful, they could resupply all their missiles and tow a significant number of pods to fire at the forts, hoping to eventually overwhelm them with numbers ("quantity is a quality of its own"). They could hold the MBS for weeks, which is the time it would take for reinforcements to arrive from New Berlin, Grayson or Eighth Fleet to return from wherever it had gone to; but they could hold for a couple of days.

This would be time for the Junction forts to make a move, indeed, but they are sitting ducks while moving. They are too slow, so the SDs attacking them can perform hit-and-run tactics. I don't know if there's enough time to do that before they arrive at the planet, but then the Junction forts at the planet are no better than the planetary forts would be either. If the latter were taken into account in the planning, then adding more forts wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Oyster Bay resulted in debris that impacted the planet, but the RMN never saw that attack coming. During the BoM, wouldn't there have been plenty of time to preposition tugs?


Yes.

Also, why aren't attackers held responsible for impacts with the planet by missiles which end up far beyond the targets that they engaged? Are missiles not programmed to self-destruct beyond a certain range? IOW, I thought the planetary forts simply had to ensure that they took up position far enough from the planet.


Because the positioning of defences is the defender's job and responsibility. If you place a defence installation in the middle of a civilian population and that gets attacked, the civilian losses are the defender's responsibilities. In other words: you can't use civilians as shields.

So you're right, one simple solution might be to move the forts sufficiently away from the planet that the most confused missiles wouldn't mistake fort for planet.

There was some discussion of what happens to the debris of a missile that did decide it couldn't attack the fort and therefore self-destructed. It's still moving at 0.81c relative to the fort and planet. If the fort is half a million km from the planet (beyond the Moon's orbit for us) and the missile self-destructed within 25,000 km of that, it's going to be at about 500,000 km from the planet, or 2.05 seconds from possible impact. The planet is not THAT big of a target in astronomical terms, but once the missile self-destructs, it can't manoeuvre.

And missiles that were taken out by PDLC can't manoeuvre either.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:39 pm

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I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:04 pm

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cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.

But if you pull the Junction forts then there's nothing stopping Haven from parking a force at the Junction and daring 3rd or 8th fleet to stick their heads into that sausage grinder.

And without 3rd and 8th fleets it wouldn't matter that there were more forts in the inner system - Home Fleet and the forts can't indefinitely withstand 300+ SDs backed by colliers full of spare missiles.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:40 pm

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cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.


No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:00 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.

But if you pull the Junction forts then there's nothing stopping Haven from parking a force at the Junction and daring 3rd or 8th fleet to stick their heads into that sausage grinder.

And without 3rd and 8th fleets it wouldn't matter that there were more forts in the inner system - Home Fleet and the forts can't indefinitely withstand 300+ SDs backed by colliers full of spare missiles.

But how would the Havenites know that the junction is a barenaked lady? Besides, there are shoals of pods that would be left at the junction. If you imagine the junction as a beachhead, I doubt the RHN would want to be caught between RMN forces and the beachhead.

At any rate, castling involves only one Rook, not both. The entire complement of forts do not have to be recalled. Only enough to cover the inner system in a pinch. Consider that Operation Beatrice would be predicated upon the last known tactical position of the forces in the MBS.

.
Last edited by cthia on Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:05 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.


No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?

Indeed, but falling short of either for whatever strategic reason (I can think of none, but the benefit of the doubt may be in order) at least castling on the Queen's side is prudent.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Theemile   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:47 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.


No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?


Why "Abandon" the Junction? The Junction Fort force there is large enough that it can be split and a portion of forts could move in system to replace destroyed or damaged defense units there - but given the time to move, that should only be done as a response to destroyed/damaged defenses, otherwise, that is the purpose of mobile forces, when they are still available/existent.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:35 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.


No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?


Theemile wrote:Why "Abandon" the Junction? The Junction Fort force there is large enough that it can be split and a portion of forts could move in system to replace destroyed or damaged defense units there - but given the time to move, that should only be done as a response to destroyed/damaged defenses, otherwise, that is the purpose of mobile forces, when they are still available/existent.

Exactly what I was thinking. There is supposedly a very large concentric ring of forts. Castling on the chess board only involves either side of the "board." Either the King or Queen side. Inner or Outer ring. Life imitates art.

If Havenite forces were to make a beeline for the junction, they could become pinned against the "beachhead."

I dunno why he would use the term "abandon."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:57 am

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cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?

Theemile wrote:Why "Abandon" the Junction? The Junction Fort force there is large enough that it can be split and a portion of forts could move in system to replace destroyed or damaged defense units there - but given the time to move, that should only be done as a response to destroyed/damaged defenses, otherwise, that is the purpose of mobile forces, when they are still available/existent.

cthia wrote:Exactly what I was thinking. There is supposedly a very large concentric ring of forts. Castling on the chess board only involves either side of the "board." Either the King or Queen side. Inner or Outer ring. Life imitates art.

If Havenite forces were to make a beeline for the junction, they could become pinned against the "beachhead."

I dunno why he would use the term "abandon."

Because you said "the junction forts could have been redeployed" and NOT "some of the junction forts could have been redeployed". Both Jonathan_S and Thinksmarkedly read it the same way. And then later you said:
But how would the Havenites know that the junction is a barenaked lady? Besides, there are shoals of pods that would be left at the junction.
This reinforces the thought that the forts are gone.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:11 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I am suggesting that the RMN should have castled as soon as the problems in Apollo production manifested. There was plenty of time before the BoM when the junction forts could have been redeployed to the inner system.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, they should have moved Third or Eihgth or both.

There's no reason to abandon the Junction until it's a real Case Zulu. There were production issues with missiles, sure, but that's not the end of the world. How can you justify abandoning the cash cow and Manticore's access to ALL of the other systems in the Empire?

Theemile wrote:Why "Abandon" the Junction? The Junction Fort force there is large enough that it can be split and a portion of forts could move in system to replace destroyed or damaged defense units there - but given the time to move, that should only be done as a response to destroyed/damaged defenses, otherwise, that is the purpose of mobile forces, when they are still available/existent.

cthia wrote:Exactly what I was thinking. There is supposedly a very large concentric ring of forts. Castling on the chess board only involves either side of the "board." Either the King or Queen side. Inner or Outer ring. Life imitates art.

If Havenite forces were to make a beeline for the junction, they could become pinned against the "beachhead."

I dunno why he would use the term "abandon."

Because you said "the junction forts could have been redeployed" and NOT "some of the junction forts could have been redeployed". Both Jonathan_S and Thinksmarkedly read it the same way.

I see. I wasn't clear. My badd. Oftentimes I give the benefit of the doubt that everyone can easily understand my notions and what I feel should be obvious, and oftentimes I get bit on the arse for it.

I implied that all of the forts should / would be redeployed. And I stand by it. But not redeployed to the inner system. I was thinking that only the outer shell would be redeployed, or only half of each of the shells that are closer to the planet.

But! The remaining forts would have to be redeployed about the junction to take up the slack. Thus, all forts would have to be redeployed in some fashion.

To make my posts brief (because some people dislike their length at times, and because oftentimes I am short on time) I leave out what I think should be obvious. It is difficult to strike a balance sometimes. So I usually err on the side of caution and length.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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