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Question about Beowulf tactics

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:01 pm

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n7axw wrote:There is already some microjumping going on in the honorverse. IIRC, in the BOM, Honor microjumped from the junction to the position where she engaged Chin's ships.

I think therehas been some discussion about microjumping Truman's SDPs on toward Beowulf in the event of a SLN attack. At any rate it wasn't my idea.

Don



Yes, I believe you are correct, there have been some micro jumps made now and then. But as Duckk pointed out, setting up for that jump can take several minutes and the jump will only get you close to where you want to be.

But what I was after was a way to harass an enemy fleet or to make lightning strikes on the supply and maintenance train of a fleet. To do that I wanted to micro-jump to within energy weapon range of say a freighter hauling missiles, then blast away a bunch of alpha nodes in it's wedge and then immediately micro-jump back out before my ship gets shot at. The new technology could be mounted in something small like a frigate that could jump in quickly blast at the wedge nodes in a SD then jump back out. The frigate could never have enough power to do serious damage to the SD, but it might severely effect its ability to fight or survive an encounter with an undamaged SD.

But alas,... it's beyond the realm of possibilities I guess. :(
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:31 pm

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Vince wrote:The forts that were seen in On Basilisk Station (manpower intensive, no internal pod-laying capability) were stood down. Manticore replaced the Junction forts with more capable forts as of At All Costs (see chapter 62), which is why Home Fleet was freed to move from the Junction to Sphinx.

no, they moved home fleet due to Sphinx being too close to the hyper limit and not protected by the RZ. AAC talks about this briefly.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:35 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
n7axw wrote:There is already some microjumping going on in the honorverse. IIRC, in the BOM, Honor microjumped from the junction to the position where she engaged Chin's ships.

I think therehas been some discussion about microjumping Truman's SDPs on toward Beowulf in the event of a SLN attack. At any rate it wasn't my idea.

Don



Yes, I believe you are correct, there have been some micro jumps made now and then. But as Duckk pointed out, setting up for that jump can take several minutes and the jump will only get you close to where you want to be.

But what I was after was a way to harass an enemy fleet or to make lightning strikes on the supply and maintenance train of a fleet. To do that I wanted to micro-jump to within energy weapon range of say a freighter hauling missiles, then blast away a bunch of alpha nodes in it's wedge and then immediately micro-jump back out before my ship gets shot at. The new technology could be mounted in something small like a frigate that could jump in quickly blast at the wedge nodes in a SD then jump back out. The frigate could never have enough power to do serious damage to the SD, but it might severely effect its ability to fight or survive an encounter with an undamaged SD.

But alas,... it's beyond the realm of possibilities I guess. :(

It's outside current capabilities. It's outside immediately plausible conjecture based on known capabilities. What RFC has in mind, we cannot say.

Somewhat tighter, somewhat more accurate microjumps - incremental improvements on existing tech - that's not too wild. And it may be an interesting function for near-future battlecruisers, especially if - hypothetically - mounting a second hypergenerator would help make for shorter possible effective cycle times. I suggest a BC, because you'd want something large to spare the space for a second hypergenerator and to be an effective energy range combatant, but small enough to cycle up and down relatively quickly. So I figure a BC would be around the sweet spot that represents an effective compromise there.

Alternatively, if you want tolerate a lot of risk, something smaller may do, and destroyers could also use faster cycle time arrangements for moving up and down hyper bands for fleet screening and signalling elements in another band.

Don't expect anything in the classic frigate tonnage range to be used for anything of this sort. The energy weapons are too dinky and the platform is too crowded for any generous enlargement of the hypergenerator cubage, or pretty much anything else.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Zakharra   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:57 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Someone injected the thought that since the SLN and Manticore and Haven. at least, are now at war, the SLN /Mandarins could invoke the War portions of the SL constitution and other laws to tell Beowulf to help defend the SL and allow SLN warships into Beowulf space- then, when Beowulf rejects that and/or fires on SLN ships entering the hyper limit, SLN jumps in with both feet to seize Beowulf as a traitor system to the SL.

The SEM has noted their sense that a state of war exists between them and the League. The League hasn't had a declaration of war - they'd need to get that one through the Assembly, barring a plausible claim of an Eridani Edict violation (!) by the Grand Alliance. Without that declaration, Beowulf can, if they feel a need to respond at all, and after they are done laughing, tell the League rep to pound sand. Oh, and here's our veto of that declaration. Buh-bye. We've got a vote to take here, quit pulling our leg.



A vote isn't necessary anymore. Legally a state of war exists between the SEM/GA and the SL in all senses of the word. So this bypasses any need for a vote.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Vince   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:14 pm

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kzt wrote:
Vince wrote:The forts that were seen in On Basilisk Station (manpower intensive, no internal pod-laying capability) were stood down. Manticore replaced the Junction forts with more capable forts as of At All Costs (see chapter 62), which is why Home Fleet was freed to move from the Junction to Sphinx.

no, they moved home fleet due to Sphinx being too close to the hyper limit and not protected by the RZ. AAC talks about this briefly.

Sphinx being too close to the hyper limit was the reason why Home Fleet was moved to Sphinx. But that was not the reason why Home Fleet was allowed to move to Sphinx. The reason why Home Fleet was allowed to move to Sphinx was the new Junction forts coming online meant that Home Fleet no longer had to cover the Junction.

When the Junction Forts came on line, Home Fleet was no longer forced to be stationed at the Wormhole Junction. If the Junction Forts had not come on line when Sphinx moved to nearly clearing the resonance zone, the RMN would be forced to cover both Sphinx and the Junction. And the only force left to do that (if the Junction Forts hadn't come online) was 8th Fleet.
At All Costs, Chapter 62 wrote:He turned from the visual display to regard the huge master plot, and allowed himself a feeling of satisfaction as he studied the icons of the new fortresses. A year ago, the Manticoran Wormhole Junction's permanent fortifications had been virtually nonexistent. In fact, they'd been so sparse he'd been forced to hang Home Fleet all the way out at the Junction to cover the critical central nexus of the Star Kingdom's economy against attack.
He hadn't liked that, but the Janacek Admiralty's failure to update the fortresses had left him no choice. And at least the Manticore System's astrography had let him get away with it for a while.
Classic system-defense doctrine, developed over centuries of experience, taught that a covering fleet should be deployed in an interior position. Habitable planets inevitably lay inside any star's hyper limit, and habitable planets were generally what made star systems valuable. That being the case, the smart move was to position your own combat power where it could reach those habitable planets before any attacker coming in from outside the limit could do the same thing.
Unfortunately, one could argue that the Wormhole Junction was what truly made the Manticore System valuable. D'Orville didn't happen to like that argument, but he couldn't deny that it had a certain applicability. Without the Junction, the Star Kingdom would never have had the economic and industrial muscle to take on something the Republic of Haven's size. And it was certainly the Junction which made the Manticore System so attractive to potential aggressors like Haven in the first place.
And therein lay the problem. Or, at least, one of the problems.
The Junction was almost seven light-hours from Manticore-A. Which meant any fleet stationed to cover the Junction was light-hours away from the planets on which the vast majority of Queen Elizabeth III's subjects happened to live. As the man charged with protecting those subjects, that was . . . inconvenient for one Sebastian D'Orville.
The Junction's position also put it over eleven light-hours from Manticore-B, which created Home Fleet's commander's second problem. But, fortunately, Manticore-B also lay far outside the resonance zone—the volume of space between the Junction and Manticore-A in which it was virtually impossible to translate between hyper-space and normal-space. Any wormhole terminus associated with a star formed a conical volume in hyper, with the wormhole at its apex and a base centered on the star and twice as wide as its hyper limit, in which hyper-space astrogation became less than totally reliable. The bigger the terminus or junction, the stronger the resonance effect . . . and the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, with its multiple termini, was the largest ever discovered. The resonance zone it produced was more of a tsunami, and it didn't just make astrogation "less than reliable." It made it the next best thing to flatly impossible. Any translation out of the resonance zone risked serious astrogational uncertainty, and any translation into the zone would have been no more than a complicated way to commit suicide. But since the Manticore Binary System's secondary component lay outside the resonance (and would for the next few hundred years or so), Home Fleet had actually been closer from its position covering the Junction—in terms of travel time—to Manticore-B than to Manticore-A.
As for Manticore-A, the planets of Manticore and Sphinx—Home Fleet's major inner-system defensive obligations—had been well inside the same resonance zone when he took up command of Home Fleet, with Manticore, with its smaller orbital radius, steadily "overtaking" Sphinx as it moved towards opposition. Each planet spent half its year inside the zone, and Sphinx's year was more than five T-years long. That meant it took thirty-one T-months to cross through the RZ, and it had been almost in the middle of the zone when he took up his command.
Actually, Sphinx's position was the third, and in many ways worst, problem confronting any Home Fleet CO, because the planet's orbital radius was only 15.3 million kilometers—less than nine-tenths of a light-minute—shorter than the GO primary's twenty-two-light-minute hyper limit. In an era of MDMs, that meant an attacker could translate out of hyper with the planet, and its entire orbital infrastructure, already fifty million kilometers inside his missile range. Even a conventionally armed fleet, with old-style compensators, and a relative velocity on translation of zero, could have achieved a zero/zero intercept with the planet in under an hour. A fleet of superdreadnoughts with modern Alliance compensators could have done it in barely fifty minutes.
Which, all things considered, didn't leave the system defenses' commander a lot of time in which to react.
But with Sphinx so deep inside the zone, he'd actually had much more defensive depth. He'd still been able, at least in theory, to cover both habitable planets from his position at the Junction, since he could have micro-jumped away from the Junction (and the primary) and then jumped back in close enough to come in behind any fleet moving in on either planet. He would have found it difficult to actually overtake the attackers, perhaps, but the range of his MDMs would have compensated for that. And because it would have taken the attacker longer to reach engagement range of his target, Home Fleet had had time to make those jumps. In theory, at least.
But theory, as Sebastian D'Orville had learned over the years, had a nasty habit of biting one on the backside at the most inopportune moment. That was why he'd never really been happy with his enforced deployment. And now that Sphinx would clear the RZ in less than four T-months, he was even less comfortable with hanging his fleet on the Junction. The planet had lost too much of the additional "depth" the zone had created for him, and even in a best-case scenario, his need to make two separate hyper translations from the Junction would have placed him well astern of his hypothetical attacker, since he couldn't make even the first of them until after the aggressor force arrived and started accelerating towards its targets.
In effect, Home Fleet had been isolated from the rest of the inner-system's defenses, because any attacking fleet would be between D'Orville's ships and the fixed defenses which were supposed to support it. And that attacking fleet would have been able to begin building an acceleration advantage towards its objectives while Home Fleet was still getting itself organized.
Under those circumstances, an attacker without the strength to defeat both Home Fleet and the inner defenses together might well still have the strength to turn on Home Fleet—which would have no option but to pursue him—and crush it in a separate, isolated engagement.
Which was why D'Orville was so relieved the new forts were finally operational. Much smaller than the old prewar fortifications which had been decommissioned to provide the manpower to crew new construction, they were actually more powerfully armed, thanks to the same increased automation and weapons developments which had gone into the Navy's new warships. And each of those forts was surrounded by literally hundreds of missile pods, with the fire control to handle stupendous salvos. It would take an attack in overwhelming force to break those defenses, which had freed D'Orville to move Home Fleet closer to a more traditional covering position, locating his command in Sphinx orbit.

Italics are the author's, boldface text is my emphasis.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:35 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Someone injected the thought that since the SLN and Manticore and Haven. at least, are now at war, the SLN /Mandarins could invoke the War portions of the SL constitution and other laws to tell Beowulf to help defend the SL and allow SLN warships into Beowulf space- then, when Beowulf rejects that and/or fires on SLN ships entering the hyper limit, SLN jumps in with both feet to seize Beowulf as a traitor system to the SL.

The SEM has noted their sense that a state of war exists between them and the League. The League hasn't had a declaration of war - they'd need to get that one through the Assembly, barring a plausible claim of an Eridani Edict violation (!) by the Grand Alliance. Without that declaration, Beowulf can, if they feel a need to respond at all, and after they are done laughing, tell the League rep to pound sand. Oh, and here's our veto of that declaration. Buh-bye. We've got a vote to take here, quit pulling our leg.



Zakharra wrote: A vote isn't necessary anymore. Legally a state of war exists between the SEM/GA and the SL in all senses of the word. So this bypasses any need for a vote.



Not quite, there is a difference between the de facto war that is happening, and a legally declared war with the support of the Assembly. As far as the SLN and the Mandarins are concerned, they have been conducting what amounts to a "police action" and they are unable to force any of the member states to support it unless they ask for (and get) a declaration of war from the Assembly.

The SLN has been ignoring the legal requirements; but there were a lot of systems -- almost a quarter of them -- that didn't support calling Beowulf's activities "treason."

Don't think of that as support for Beowulf or Beowulf's arguments. The delegates aren't looking at things from such a statesman-like perspective. Think of it instead as an indicator of non-suport for the policies of the mandarins; if the numbers get much worse for the Mandarins, their pet government won't survive a vote of no confidence.

News from the regimes' critics (including, O'Hanrahan, I expect) will be moving faster than Abruzzi can re-write it; they don't have the active, engaged support of the general populace; they have been deliberately making the electorate as apathetic as possible. Economic dislocations are going to make that apathy evaporate; the inability of the SLN to police their "own" space will become obvious; the wheels are going to come off in a major way.

I think, more like the Austro-Hungarian or the Ottoman Empires, they will fracture into smaller, ambitious states that will seek to aggrandize their neighbors.

Unlike Russia, where about two thirds of the post-Soviet empire is still in the Russian Federation.

Rob
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Zakharra   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:50 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:The SEM has noted their sense that a state of war exists between them and the League. The League hasn't had a declaration of war - they'd need to get that one through the Assembly, barring a plausible claim of an Eridani Edict violation (!) by the Grand Alliance. Without that declaration, Beowulf can, if they feel a need to respond at all, and after they are done laughing, tell the League rep to pound sand. Oh, and here's our veto of that declaration. Buh-bye. We've got a vote to take here, quit pulling our leg.



Zakharra wrote: A vote isn't necessary anymore. Legally a state of war exists between the SEM/GA and the SL in all senses of the word. So this bypasses any need for a vote.



Not quite, there is a difference between the de facto war that is happening, and a legally declared war with the support of the Assembly. As far as the SLN and the Mandarins are concerned, they have been conducting what amounts to a "police action" and they are unable to force any of the member states to support it unless they ask for (and get) a declaration of war from the Assembly.

The SLN has been ignoring the legal requirements; but there were a lot of systems -- almost a quarter of them -- that didn't support calling Beowulf's activities "treason."

Don't think of that as support for Beowulf or Beowulf's arguments. The delegates aren't looking at things from such a statesman-like perspective. Think of it instead as an indicator of non-suport for the policies of the mandarins; if the numbers get much worse for the Mandarins, their pet government won't survive a vote of no confidence.

News from the regimes' critics (including, O'Hanrahan, I expect) will be moving faster than Abruzzi can re-write it; they don't have the active, engaged support of the general populace; they have been deliberately making the electorate as apathetic as possible. Economic dislocations are going to make that apathy evaporate; the inability of the SLN to police their "own" space will become obvious; the wheels are going to come off in a major way.

I think, more like the Austro-Hungarian or the Ottoman Empires, they will fracture into smaller, ambitious states that will seek to aggrandize their neighbors.

Unlike Russia, where about two thirds of the post-Soviet empire is still in the Russian Federation.

Rob


It is more than a police action. Manticore has made it known under no uncertain terms that there -is- a state of war between the SEM/GA and the SL. There is no way to legally wiggle out from under the fact that the SL is at war anymore. The need of the Delegates to vote on the matter was taken away when Manticore declared war (and blew away the SLN fleet) in the process. I think there would be provisions for self defense for the SLN in the case of attack by a outside power, in which case of threat that the SLN has the authority to enter and defend any system of the SL.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by SWM   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:28 pm

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Zakharra wrote: It is more than a police action. Manticore has made it known under no uncertain terms that there -is- a state of war between the SEM/GA and the SL. There is no way to legally wiggle out from under the fact that the SL is at war anymore. The need of the Delegates to vote on the matter was taken away when Manticore declared war (and blew away the SLN fleet) in the process. I think there would be provisions for self defense for the SLN in the case of attack by a outside power, in which case of threat that the SLN has the authority to enter and defend any system of the SL.

Sure, you can say that a state of war exists. But the League bureaucracy still can't execute any war powers unless the Legislature declares a state of war. It doesn't matter what the Mandarins say--they CANNOT use those powers to force the planets of the League to do anything unless the Legislature declares a state of war and GIVES them those powers.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by crewdude48   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:13 pm

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Somebody declaring war on you is not the same as you declaring war on them. In WW2, Japan declared war on the US, then bombed Pearl Harbor. After that, the president went to Congress and gave the "December 7, 1941; a date that will live in infamy," speech to ask Congress to declare war on Japan. After that, Germany declared war on the US in accordance with their treaty with Japan, and the President went back to Congress to ask for a decleration of war against Germany.

Just because The Star Empire is at war with The League does not mean that The League is at war with The Star Empire.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Relax   » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:29 pm

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NIT: Japan did not declare war before Pearl Harbor.
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