Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

cthia wrote:You know, I wonder if Project Gram and the incredible tech that has come out of it, has enabled breakthroughs in the private sector, made possible by the declassification of certain research. Would such products which are available to the SK's private sector also be made available to all of the SK's allies and newly acquired territories?

It seems like techno-nerds all over the galaxy would visit the SK, who's sole job is to research both common and advanced technologies. Aren't there certain US products that cannot be exported to other countries?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I have no doubt the answer is yes. Metallurgy and composite materials engineering resulting from the study of better armour; better grav controls lead to civilian improvements; the compact fission and fusion reactors once declassified should revolutionise small craft endurance too.

And whenever the FTL communicators get declassified, it'll spawn a whole new industry. I actually expect the RMN has been working with civilian companies for civilian applications on this. The genie is out of the bag, so everyone knows it will happen. Better to ensure it's a Manticoran company that gets first mover advantage.

Jonathan_S wrote:Edit - I see ThinksMarkedly tackled how useful it might be to have these declassified; and rated them somewhat higher than I did. While I mostly tackled whether they'd be declassified anytime soon.

Most, probably all, of Gram would still be classified and restricted to the military. And the issue with export control is that it's fine if you're trying to prevent someone from buying a lot of your stuff to use in ways you disapprove of, but it doesn't stop them from buying it to reverse engineer within your territory. And it's hard to prevent at least a little export controller material from getting smuggled out. So you have to figure that the details behind the functionality of items that are export controlled but otherwise available to the domestic civilian market will rapidly leak to any motivated enemy or competitor. So definitely not to be risked lightly.

It's not clear exactly which bits of advanced tech came out of Gram - but let's attribute it all there and look at the impacts of releasing it.

* Baffles, enabling true MDMs. The grav shielding might have some odd civilian use I'm not envisioning but its militarily critical and while both Haven and the Andies figured out the trick it's still a very valuable secret and not to be shared.

* Micro-fusion plans, enabling the power budgets of the new dazzler & dragon's teeth ECM warheads and the unprecedented endurance of the Ghost Rider recon drones. Seems too poorly shielded for most civilian use and unnecessary in shuttles or starships. Offers a significant military advantage and so far no-one outside Manticore appears to have duplicated it. May have some practical civilian uses but that's not enough IMHO to justify releasing it.

* LAC fission plants. In my opinion the least sensitive tech since once the idea is out there it's no great engineering challenge to match up century old designs with modern rad shielding make churning some out. But I'm not sure where the use would be that would justify the civilian radioactive waste and meltdown concerns just to get reduced fuel consumption at moderate peak power levels.

* FTL comms, high bandwidth FTL comms, FTL fire control. One gives a head starts into the next. The communication is useful for civilians within a planetary systems but the risk to the engineering details getting out still argues to keep the actual designs and hardware under tight government control while possibly letting civilian comm traffic use the hardware (Hermes buoys)

* Beta-squared nodes. Most useful for small in-system civilian runabouts that, like old LACs, couldn't afford the mass/volume for full power old-style nodes. But that doesn't seem a compelling reason to release something that helps small warships cram in significantly more fighting potential. (also not clear to what extent the mass reductions can be separated from the FTL signalling mentioned above - since Shrikes are specifically noted to have high bandwidth FTL due to their Beta-squared nodes). Freighters and Liners would get some benefit from Beta-squared node; but not a huge benefit (not like a little destroyer or CL that's trying to cram in everything it can within a limited displacement)

* Improved compensators (probably didn't fall under Gram) - somewhat useful in slightly cutting down hyper transit times and making it harder for pirates to intercept. But most civilian ship transit time is spent at max velocity where the compenstor doesn't help. And since they rarely justify spending for military grade rad shielding or hyper generators; either of which would provide far more transit time reduction than an improved compensator. Can't see this getting released to most civilians.

* Improved stealth - no civilian use could justify releasing this.

* Improved endurance missile nodes - nothing civilian would use these. So even though several outside governments seem to have independently reproduced this I don't see any upside to making the tech public.

* Bow walls - no legit civilian use. So even though at least Haven, and possibly the Andies had independently figured out the trick, there doesn't seem any upside to releasing this.

Did I forget any major breakthroughs?

Many of these have limited to no civilian use I can see to offset the military risk of releasing them. And the ones that do have civilian uses still seem far to risky to make public yet.

Brigade XO wrote:Linx Terminus has -now- fortresses and formal RMN detachemnt there but the Base that is in formation is at Spindle. That's the Quadrant Center for SEM with the Governor and before the reatification of the admission, it was the naval logistics location with at least one engineering ship for repairs. The orbital faciiities will follow incluiding yard facilites for the Navy and where the logistics will be managed/stored - in freighters or ammuntion ships if nowhere elce- till proper things are built.

Jonathan_S wrote:Given the rebuilding that's happening at Manticore all that probably got delayed, but give it 15-20 years and there will probably be a sizable civilian infrastructure near the terminus. (Possibly sooner if the Cluster systems can build less capable but adequate warehousing and civilian stations there out of resources that aren't up to providing significant help rebuilding Manticore's higher end orbital infrastructure)

cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?

Theemile wrote:Which Terminus?

cthia wrote:Any of them. They can't leave their system. Having to remain on one side of a door without opening it is beyond the capability of humans. And, who will escort their freighters?

Theemile wrote:They can't leave SL space, not SL systems. As long as the terminus (and wormhole) is associated with an SL system, why would they not be able to police it?

And beyond the attempt to force the closed wormhole at Zunker, when have we ever seen a SLN ship escort a freighter?

cthia wrote:Originally posted in the wrong thread. Begs dozens of pardons for the transplant.

cthia wrote:If the SLN is grounded, who is controlling their terminus?

Theemile wrote:Which Terminus?

cthia wrote:Any of them. They can't leave their system. Having to remain on one side of a door without opening it is beyond the capability of humans. And, who will escort their freighters?

Theemile wrote:They can't leave SL space, not SL systems. As long as the terminus (and wormhole) is associated with an SL system, why would they not be able to police it?

And beyond the attempt to force the closed wormhole at Zunker, when have we ever seen a SLN ship escort a freighter?

Probably never. But they're going to have to now. They've lost their edge. The same pirates they've supported may now be living in a system apart from the SL. Nothing personal, but we still need to eat. And SL freighters are conveniently naked. The previous emperor now wears no clothes. The pirates are going to show him he's naked.

cthia wrote::lol:

Absolutely. They were the pirates. But, had they fairly recently become the ROOT of piracy? In my original post I included a passage which HoS says the SL also supported Transtellars who operated by piracy. Consider what a huge conglomerate can accomplish here on Earth, if they could operate a department of piracy against it's competition, with the blessing of its own country.

These Transtellars were originally all a part of the SL. With the rampant domino effect of secessions, any particular Transtellar may no longer be a part of the SL. They may have been located outside of the Core League anyway, because off-planet operations would be cheaper, via cheaper labor, and less restrictive laws, etc. Much of the same reasons American companies choose to seek out foreign soil.

Now, these same Transtellars would continue to be as selfish and self centered as they always were. They no longer owe allegiance to a League they are no longer a part. Plus the SL may no longer wish to trade with seceded planets. That may cause a problem if equipment and resources needed by those Transtellars are manufactured within the Core planets. So what's a Transtellar to do?

Take from the rich and give to the richer. It isn't personal, it's just business. It is not going to continue to be business as usual for the League, across the board.

You have to be careful releasing dangers into the wild. One day those dangers can come back home to roost.

You just have to wonder and ask yourself just how far [SL and Transtellar]-sponsored piracy branched out all over the galaxy.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote::lol:

Absolutely. They were the pirates. But, had they fairly recently become the ROOT of piracy? In my original post I included a passage which HoS says the SL also supported Transtellars who operated by piracy. Consider what a huge conglomerate can accomplish here on Earth, if they could operate a department of piracy against it's competition, with the blessing of its own country.

These Transtellars were originally all a part of the SL. With the rampant domino effect of secessions, any particular Transtellar may no longer be a part of the SL. They may have been located outside of the Core League anyway, because off-planet operations would be cheaper, via cheaper labor, and less restrictive laws, etc. Much of the same reasons American companies choose to seek out foreign soil.

Now, these same Transtellars would continue to be as selfish and self centered as they always were. They no longer owe allegiance to a League they are no longer a part. Plus the SL may no longer wish to trade with seceded planets. That may cause a problem if equipment and resources needed by those Transtellars are manufactured within the Core planets. So what's a Transtellar to do?

Take from the rich and give to the richer. It isn't personal, it's just business. It is not going to continue to be business as usual for the League, across the board.

You have to be careful releasing dangers into the wild. One day those dangers can come back home to roost.

You just have to wonder and ask yourself just how far [SL and Transtellar]-sponsored piracy branched out all over the galaxy.

Still the Transtellars weren't supporting piracy for kicks. They weren't even supporting it because the captured loot was a good return on investment. They were supporting it because it let OFS take a system over and then turn around and give the Transtellar a sweetheart monopoly deal that was good return on investment.

Now they don't have the OFS to do the planetary occupation for them. They could still try to do it themselves but that's risky since they don't have the 800 lbs gorilla for backing should their freebootery attract the unfriendly attention of someone with a real navy.

There doesn't seem to be significant upside to even independent transtellar turning lose a wave of undirected piracy across all of space. It's too likely to, sooner or later, come to the attention of Manticore who might decide its best cut off at the head. The return on the piracy isn't likely to be high enough to justify the risk of losing their legitimate business.

That doesn't say that they'll become angels. Just that any piracy or freebooting expeditions they quietly fund will likely be very carefully targeted at systems far enough away from prying eyes that their involvement is unlikely to be noticed. Which in turn means that they won't be driving a widespread outbreak in piracy (probably performing less than when OFS was in play)

Now there will be true warlords and pirates, not backed by transtellars. But the harsh economics of piracy means you need a fairly hospitable environment to make a go of it (even if you steal your pirate ship). Missiles, maintenance, and supplies aren't cheap so you need a way to fence your loot, suppliers and yards willing to work with known or suspected pirates (both of which usually require a system government willing to turn a blind eye) or you end up with a non-functioning ship in pretty short order.