OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

kzt wrote:Does she even need to enter the hyperlimit?

So there is no extended shooting back and forth, Honor says ‘bored now’ and stops playing with her food. If 5th jumps in first, then Honor kills them, all of them, in the same cataclysmic volley that she did. And then goes back to wait for 2nd to come into range.

kzt wrote:Apollo is somewhere between 10x to 30x more deadly than RMN pre-Apollo Mk23s, maybe 50x if you can control the geometry enough. The 900 SDs Have was building could probably take 8th as of BoM, but there would be a lot less ships at the end and would likely win by running 8th out of ammo.

It’s playing cowboys vs combat aviation brigade. Under the correct circumstances a bunch of skilled men with 45-70s can put a real hurt on them, but if you are not very clever and achieve surprise you are going to get slaughtered.

kzt wrote:Well, sure, if honor was smoking crack.

8th jumps in, reaches apollo maximum range (far outside RHN effective range) and blows up 2nd. Basically, they all die in a single giant volley like what she killed 5th with. Does she even need to enter the hyperlimit?

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:You are still missing my point. Honor is the better tactician / strategist between her and Theisman. I was implying that Honor's request for such a daring maneuver may have been something beyond what even Theisman foresaw: even if he could conceive of it in the first place, and not just because Honor is a better tactician / strategist, but also because of the abilities of Apollo.

Honor didn't arbitrarily ask for her placement on the chess board; for one it was a placement that fully appreciated Apollo's capabilities. Theisman may not have seen that maneuver coming, even if he wasn't handicapped by the lack of a full appreciation of Apollo's capabilities.

And of course, Honor's astrogator made the tactic possible.

I will say this for my niece since she isn't here, "Hamish probably wouldn't have requested the same maneuver."


Thanks for the help, tlb. I almost forgot to include the extra ('s) on astrogator. But you keep me on my toes.

It's true that the longer effective range of Apollo had Honor request an emergence point further from her target than a non-Apollo fleet would have picked. And so if it had been 8th fleet in position to respond first then Honor would almost assuredly have picked a somewhat different position relative to Tourville's ships than Kuzak and 3rd fleet did.

However, Chin wasn't jumping blind to some pre-guessed location, or on at some pre-established time. A ship popped into hyper to let her know it was time to spring the trap and exactly where her target was. If Honor had arrived (whether through the Junction or because 8th fleet had be preemptively moved to the MBS side of the Junction) before that trap was sprung it basically doesn't matter when and where she decides is the best place for her to be - nor how unexpected that timing and location might be based on Theisman's original planning, or to Tourville on the scene. Chin still gets to know exactly where Honor's ships actually are and then gets to pick her preferred emergence relative to that.

There's no position Honor can jump to where Chin couldn't then spring the trap on her.

The one thing Honor might have been able to do, should she be the first responder AND suspect an additional 110 SD(P)s waiting to spring a trap (something we've no evidence that she was worried about), would be to split her force and use part as bait to try to get Chin to spring the trap so Honor could use the remainder of her force to in turn counter-trap Chin. (Though that could be quite hard on the bait)

cthia wrote:But let's take a closer look at Kuzak. Kuzak was closer to the junction than Honor. I am perplexed by Kuzak's close proximity to the junction instead of being positioned closer to the planet. I am assuming I missed a memo? I know that the junction is important, but wouldn't San Martin lobby for protection; which should imply a position closer to the planet? Unless there was a contingent in orbit about the planet.

I suspect Kuzak was out near the terminus in part for similar reasons that D'Orville had previously had to hold Home Fleet out near the Junction -- until modern forts were in place to delay any attack on the wormhole keeping the fleet near it was the best compromise in a poor situation. (And in part because being there lets her quickly shuttle ships to the MBS or any other threatened terminus)

By being near the wormhole the fleet can obviously directly protect it. By being either within the Junction/Terminus's small hyper limit or positioning themselves within the RZ they're protected from short range ambush from hyper. Yet the can quickly move to a spot where they can make a short jump to arrive any near the system's hyper limit (though not within the portion shadowed by the RZ -- but that's okay because no attacker can emerge in that area either). That does put them behind and chasing an attacker -- but it does let them bring them under fire before reaching the inhabited planet(s).

It's still not as ideal a position as to be within the hyper limit, placed near the occupied planets -- or at least between them and the closest point of the hyper limit. However from that position they can't intervene at the wormhole until they accelerate across the hyperlimit. And so that's only feasible if there is sufficient fortifications at the womrhole to delay an attacker long enough for the defending fleet to charge to the rescue.

In case of Case Zulu

break glass

When break glass get 8th not 3rd

kzt wrote:Honors first salvo will arrive about a minute before the first salvo from 5th lands. So by the time that first salvo hits1/6th of 5th fleet is dead. And due to the magic of the honorverse the missile effectiveness from 5th drops too due to their guiding ships getting all blowed up.

cthia wrote:My niece spoke to me about this. "I understand what you're thinking Uncle ...

In case of Case Zulu

break glass

When break glass get 8th not 3rd.

"So, 8th fleet should have been closer to the junction."

But! She pointed out to me. The repair slips are most likely in orbit, closer to the planet. If so, it would have gotten awfully crowded in orbit if 3rd was there. So that was a good chance for them to stretch their legs.

cthia wrote:My niece spoke to me about this. "I understand what you're thinking Uncle ...

In case of Case Zulu

break glass

When break glass get 8th not 3rd.

"So, 8th fleet should have been closer to the junction."

But! She pointed out to me. The repair slips are most likely in orbit, closer to the planet. If so, it would have gotten awfully crowded in orbit if 3rd was there. So that was a good chance for them to stretch their legs.

Theemile wrote:And as I said before - 8th fleet isn't a defensive formation. You don't plan them as a primary part of the defenses, because they usually are not available at the Terminus, Manticore or San Martin.

3rd fleet's primary responsibility is the Terminus - not the planet. No one will nuke the planet, just the orbital infastructure - Painful, but not crippling. The Terminus is the most valuable portion of Trevor's star and can be used to rapidly reinforce the defensive positions there, and San Martin's position is completely untenable without control of the Terminus. Fixed defenses will have to be the primary defenses for San Martin.

Dozens upon dozens of Wallers died taking the Terminus, and it is the single most important spatial position outside of Manticore itself in the war on Haven, reducing reducing supply, communication and reinforcement lines by months.

cthia wrote:I understand that. And I fully expect 3rd to be deployed near the junction when she is in the system alone.

I could not understand why the RMN would not have taken advantage of 8th fleet's visit and had 3rd fleet switch with 8th fleet - since 8th was there. Convenience. Practicality. And a more aggressive deployment. Having 8th fleet near the junction would have been a better allocation of resources through a more fitting deployment.

8th fleet is not a defensive unit, no, but her tertiary responsibilities do include supporting Home Fleet. And during what should have been a Defcon 3 Case Zulu ...

Still, he was sneaky. . . .
Then again, so was Bin-hwei Morser. Honor still didn't like her much, and she was aware—painfully, one might say, given her ability to taste mind-glows—that Morser's feelings for her went far beyond "didn't like much." But the vizeadmiral was a superior tactician, and her very dislike for Manticore had inspired her to drive her personnel even harder over the five days since Aivars Terekhov's return from Monica. She hadn't come off very well in that series of exercises, and she hadn't liked that much, either. The last thing she wanted was to look inferior to the RMN.
When you're number two, you try harder, Honor thought wryly. Especially when you resent the heck out of your number two status. Well, whatever works. I don't really care why she does it, as long she does do it.

cthia wrote:Let me try this again.

I understand that. And I fully expect 3rd to be deployed near the junction when she is in the system alone.

I could not understand why the RMN would not have taken advantage of 8th fleet's visit and had 3rd fleet switch with 8th fleet - since 8th was there. Convenience. Practicality. And a more aggressive deployment. Having 8th fleet near the junction would have been a better allocation of resources through a more fitting deployment.

8th fleet is not a defensive unit, no, but her tertiary responsibilities do include supporting Home Fleet. And during what should have been a Defcon 3 Case Zulu ...