Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

Alizon wrote:
Ok, so what are a lot of these worlds going to do, defend themselves with really harsh language? Maybe legions of Hamsters with grav lances?

No, you are going to do what every nation does when they find themselves in an unexpectedly dangerous environment without the means to defend themselves, they are going to arm themselves. And to defend yourself you're going to need a navy.

Now if you're one of those systems with a sizable SDF then you're in a better position. But if you are a system without much more than a local police force, you have real problems.

Unless you can afford to enter into a contract with the Manties for pod-laying SD's and MDM and to send you're people to Sagamani Island, you're going to have to use what's available and that will be, whether you get it from the GA or not, SLN equipment.

I think it's important to remember that for most of these systems, the security threat isn't going to be the GA, it's going to be their better armed neighbors and rouge units of the SLN. If these systems are really lucky, they'll have a powerful SDF of their own, or they'll be find a SLN task force commander that's willing to defend them and settle down. Otherwise, if you want to go shopping for a fleet, you're options are kind of limited.

If all you have is a police force, you are likely SOL, unless you ally yourself to someone with some real combat power (likely to be on terms very favorable to them). I expect that many will be trying to increase their combat power as fast as they can, within limits imposed by budgets, personnel training considerations, and maintenance abilities. It does no good to get one SD when it takes 2/3 of your trained spacers, and your largest military yard can only handle a small CL (system whose only hyper capable ship was a white elephant DD).

If all you have is a police force, you are likely SOL, unless you ally yourself to someone with some real combat power (likely to be on terms very favorable to them). I expect that many will be trying to increase their combat power as fast as they can, within limits imposed by budgets, personnel training considerations, and maintenance abilities. It does no good to get one SD when it takes 2/3 of your trained spacers, and your largest military yard can only handle a small CL (system whose only hyper capable ship was a white elephant DD).

You're assuming logic on the part of the SL member governments, not panic. These governments have spend 1000s of years as the top dog and have as one of their fundamental assumptions that they will continue to be the top dog. That world view has now been shattered. Panic is one of the most common human responses in a situation like this and many humans when in a state of panic tend to grab for the biggest hammer available (SDs) and only later think about whether or not they can lift it.

Most ex-SLN worlds are unlikely to be independent as lone entities. More likely is when the SLN splinters, you'll see regional blocs form around existing SDFs in the core and the shell, and a major bloc form around the RF member systems (which is likely to end up being the biggest of the bunch).

It gets much dicier when you get out into the protectorates, who have relied on Frontier Fleet for commerce protection. Those are systems which probably aren't wealthy enough to have their own SDFs. But, those are systems for whom it will make a lot more sense to buy heavy cruiser control platforms and freighters with ammunition (see: Erewhon and Maya) or modern-tech frigates (see: Torch) than it would to attempt to put together a crew for a SD. They can't maintain it, they can't crew it, and a SD is not a very good commerce protection unit. Unless you're worried about privateers actually coming and demanding tribute from a planet or be hit with KEWs - which actually is a possibility, if something of a remote one - a SD just isn't useful.

It's not going to be a good defense against neighbors who turn imperialistic (because they'll have those cruisers and missile ships).

No, what makes the most sense for Manticore isn't to sell off SDs, it's to take all their civilian shipyards and start producing a scaled-up Haumptman Nat Turner. Those'll scare off any pirates who don't have modern-gen hardware, they'll be basically worthless for mounting offensive operations, and they'll be cheap to both crew and maintain.

For bigger and more tempting star system targets with bigger budgets, Manticore can start manufacturing their version of Maya's Marksman and Masquerade classes.

The Scientist SDs have two purposes left in life: prisoner transport, and target practice.

biochem wrote:
You're assuming logic on the part of the SL member governments, not panic. These governments have spend 1000s of years as the top dog and have as one of their fundamental assumptions that they will continue to be the top dog. That world view has now been shattered. Panic is one of the most common human responses in a situation like this and many humans when in a state of panic tend to grab for the biggest hammer available (SDs) and only later think about whether or not they can lift it.

Even when the fact that the Solarian League isn't the top tog anymore is a direct consequence of the military impotence of those SDs?

Crown Loyalist wrote:

biochem wrote:
You're assuming logic on the part of the SL member governments, not panic. These governments have spend 1000s of years as the top dog and have as one of their fundamental assumptions that they will continue to be the top dog. That world view has now been shattered. Panic is one of the most common human responses in a situation like this and many humans when in a state of panic tend to grab for the biggest hammer available (SDs) and only later think about whether or not they can lift it.

Even when the fact that the Solarian League isn't the top tog anymore is a direct consequence of the military impotence of those SDs?

That is a logical response and you're thinking logically. But in a panic situation people don't think logically and often do really dumb illogical things. They've always though of the SDs as being the best of the best. Logic tell them that is no longer true. But reflexive responses tend to be driven by historical patterns of thought not logic. If there is enough panic present some of those 2000 governments are going to want any SD they can get. Yes it's stupid, illogical and they'd be better off with something else but they are reacting not thinking.

biochem wrote:
That is a logical response and you're thinking logically. But in a panic situation people don't think logically and often do really dumb illogical things. They've always though of the SDs as being the best of the best. Logic tell them that is no longer true. But reflexive responses tend to be driven by historical patterns of thought not logic. If there is enough panic present some of those 2000 governments are going to want any SD they can get. Yes it's stupid, illogical and they'd be better off with something else but they are reacting not thinking.

I suppose that's possible, and some of the system leaders may go scrabble after the SDs if they have no other option. But if they're going to be spending their resources, I don't see even a panicked system president using what capital he has to pick up a Scientist SD if he has any kind of reasonable alternative. Going after Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet Battlecruiser classes makes much, much more sense, and unless he's planning on going imperialist what makes the most sense is frantically trying to buy Technodyne's missile specs and start rolling off pods.

Alizon wrote:Ok, so what are a lot of these worlds going to do, defend themselves with really harsh language? Maybe legions of Hamsters with grav lances?

Defending themselves with harsh language and attempting to operate SLN SDs would be equally ineffective for most systems. Anyone who could operate SLN SDs 'right now' has no need for them, as they're at minimum a BC-level force already.

There are field expedient ways of building an effective military force relatively quickly. Rozack's forces in the Maya sector are taking one approach to that (and probably the only effective one if you want to project power outside a single system). What you cannot do is go from effectively no military to a force capable of operating ships of the wall in less time than it would take to build new modern ships of the wall, even if you have to design them and build the shipyard first.

drothgery wrote:Defending themselves with harsh language and attempting to operate SLN SDs would be equally ineffective for most systems. Anyone who could operate SLN SDs 'right now' has no need for them, as they're at minimum a BC-level force already.

Id you're talking about defending against the GA, Andermandi, or MAlign I'd say you are right.

But those ex-SLN SDs might not be totally worthless to one of the few League SDFs that already operate SDs (presumably similar the the SLN's). They've got some existing infrastructure to maintain SDs, and personnel trained to operate them. They could probably stretch that trained manpower across some more SDs faster than they could build new SDs.

Now their SDF still wouldn't be able to stop even a serious attack from the remaining SLN, but it'd be stronger the resist aggression from their neighbors, or attract nearby systems into a defensive treaty, or even perform offensive actions against other ex-league, verge, or independent star systems.

Jonathan_S wrote:Id you're talking about defending against the GA, Andermandi, or MAlign I'd say you are right.

But those ex-SLN SDs might not be totally worthless to one of the few League SDFs that already operate SDs (presumably similar the the SLN's). They've got some existing infrastructure to maintain SDs, and personnel trained to operate them. They could probably stretch that trained manpower across some more SDs faster than they could build new SDs.

Now their SDF still wouldn't be able to stop even a serious attack from the remaining SLN, but it'd be stronger the resist aggression from their neighbors, or attract nearby systems into a defensive treaty, or even perform offensive actions against other ex-league, verge, or independent star systems.

Sure, but then the question is why do they want the extra SDs. They don't need them to defend themselves against non-GA threats, they can already do that. They don't need them for commerce protection because SDs aren't any good at that unless you're going full-on convoy. They don't even need them to draw neighbors into their sphere, as one of the 30-50 odd systems which have a powerful SDF in the Solarian League they can already do that.

Maybe they might be useful for aggressive action against their neighbors, but only for a year at the most until those neighbors start rattling missile pods off their construction lines.

So yes, the systems (like Beowulf) which already can make use of SDs or BCs could potentially equip and deploy a SD... but why would they want to?

And a far scarier proposition, what if those potentially-aggressive neighbors (instead of buying another antique SD) decide to build a hundred Technodyne missile pods? All of a sudden, those SDs are as worthless as they'd be against the GA.

Crown Loyalist wrote:

biochem wrote:
You're assuming logic on the part of the SL member governments, not panic. These governments have spend 1000s of years as the top dog and have as one of their fundamental assumptions that they will continue to be the top dog. That world view has now been shattered. Panic is one of the most common human responses in a situation like this and many humans when in a state of panic tend to grab for the biggest hammer available (SDs) and only later think about whether or not they can lift it.

Even when the fact that the Solarian League isn't the top tog anymore is a direct consequence of the military impotence of those SDs?

It depends. Who are you buying them to defend against?

If you're planning on having to take on any of GA member star systems, then you might as well just surrender now.

Against anyone else, you should be just fine.

Essentially every League world with an SDF is using basically the same equipment the SLN is. Oh an SDF many have a few larger more modern SD's or other equipment but nothing game changing like MDM's or super LAC's. At best some SDF's may have the kind of advantage that the RMN had over the PPRN at the beginning of the war a few decades back. Troublesome, but manageable.

And that's good news for most ex-SLN vessel purchasers because it's probably not the Haven sector fleets you really need to worry about, it's the SDF's of their neighbors, what remains of the SLN and any SLN units that have gone rouge and are looking for a nice profitable system they can protect (pillage, subdue etc ... ).

Against any of those potential foes, SLN hardware will be more than adequate.