Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:
I see no reason to not have compensatorless bulk carriers. Other than on a $$$ basis. For all we know, those grav plates cost more than a compensator which may come practically free with alpha nodes which you must have anyways.

Well under your design you'd need to be sure your bulk cargo didn't mind hours at 5g (assuming 150g and grav plates). I guess most shuttles are probably good for 350-400g (The latest Manticoran miliatary ones much higher) so if you wanted to take full advantage then the cargo needs to take hours at 13-1/3g

Actually the biggest problem is the cargo. Designing the ship for 5G... no problem, already have to design for ~2.G minimum probably for simple structural integrity. A little increase in strength is easy, and already disgorged the crew quarters and paraphenalia to a shuttle. The cargo? BIG problem. Every product and packaging of said product along with the TEU's would have to be good for 5G??? When currently they are residing in 0g? OUCH!!! I could even see some cargo requiring MICRO gravity to be shipped where apparent G's never went over... 'x' amount.

There are many reasons for compensators. Now DW has ships shipping Iron ore interstellarly... This would not require speed. A true bulk carrier like this could indeed work without compensators and be 100Mton, 1000Mton. IF it takes 4X as long to get somewhere? Who cares. Vastly cheaper than trying to send 1000/8 = ~120 ships and crew.

Grav Waves.....??? MY ship would still have alpha nodes. Must have to go through wormholes. Hrmm, impeller is gone, so the compensator is ALSO gone right? Warshawki sails allow compensators? Trying to think about instances in the books, specifically HAE... Grav waves are just velocity multipliers and will not allow impellers.

Hrmm, can't think of quotes and too lazy at moment to look it up.

IF had more time, I would make a better post.

tlb wrote:

Relax wrote:Oi! Sorry everyone and TLB for my VERY badly written 1st paragraph...

Too many changes in subject and its and they's pointing to wrong subject. Did I ever mention I am an engineer and not an English major

How it ***SHOULD*** have been written:
All ships have shuttles with compensators; use them. Install the grav plates on the main cargo Ship for 150G's, and dump all the crew into a shuttle for ~10 hours while the main ship gets up to speed. Then, dock, cruise the hyperwaves/space. No reason the crew compartment would not be right next to shuttle bay on the exterior of hull. Just like the Fusion plant is. NO reason a crew could not embark in 5 minutes into a shuttle and use a shortrange remote control with 1950's tech to manage the acceleration of the ship. If remote drops, acceleration stops. Pretty damned simple setup.

Hope that clears up some horrible grammar, etc.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well under your design you'd need to be sure your bulk cargo didn't mind hours at 5g (assuming 150g and grav plates). I guess most shuttles are probably good for 350-400g (The latest Manticoran miliatary ones much higher) so if you wanted to take full advantage then the cargo needs to take hours at 13-1/3g

Plus of course a willingness to remote control, with nobody aboard, it from a few hundred km away since the shuttle carrying the crew needs to have its wedge up in order to have compensation and that must be clear of the wedge of the giant bulk carrier. (Oh, and since shuttles can't travel in grav waves your routes, while under >30g acceleration, are limited)

The downsides and complexity hardly seems worth it for the extra few hundred comfortable gs when the acceleration time is such a small fraction of the total transit time of most routes.

Sorry that I did not catch what you meant initially.

All in all an interesting concept. The shuttle would have to dock when jumping into the hyperspace bands and there might be times when you would have to dial back to 50gs in hyperspace as Jonathan_S mentions.

Make it a DB, instead of a shuttle, and you could work this in grav waves also. Would you need to dock to ensure coordination when doing the hyperspace transitions, or would they stay together like a convoy? Might be better docked for a wormhole transition.

I Would think crew just remain aboard and then float away after transitioning between bands. Afterwards when acceleration is required you can do so. Obviously shuttles do not have hypergenerators, so must be aboard unless they can pull an HONOR OF THE QUEEN towing via tractor beam the shuttle behind. This is a giant ship so maybe. A BC could barely tow a couple LACs and LAC's are an order of magnitude larger than a SHUTTLE. Remember, DW's shuttles are the size of a 747/a380, so plenty of living space for a crew of ~10-->20.

Didn't the author say no remote controlled ships? I always thought the implication is that there has to be warm bodies aboard a vessel attempting to plow into a planet.

cthia wrote:Didn't the author say no remote controlled ships? I always thought the implication is that there has to be warm bodies aboard a vessel attempting to plow into a planet.

The blocking ships at Beowulf in UH were all remotely controlled. The ship described here would have the crew aboard at origin and destination. Was the prohibition against remotely controlled ships or against autonomous ships (or both)?

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Didn't the author say no remote controlled ships? I always thought the implication is that there has to be warm bodies aboard a vessel attempting to plow into a planet.

The blocking ships at Beowulf in UH were all remotely controlled. The ship described here would have the crew aboard at origin and destination. Was it remotely controlled or autonomous ships that were banned?

Wale.

How bout that. The ships at Beowulf WERE remote controlled. It was the first time I said "Hmm, it seems the author threw us a bone, in the form of a loophole." I can remember at least several threads where I wish I'd been aware of the loophole then. Like a certain kamikaze thread?


In this case, what's the difference between remotely controlled or autonomous. Except for a certain timeframe.

This DISTINCTION does not bode well for the GA.

cthia wrote:In this case, what's the difference between remotely controlled or autonomous. Except for a certain timeframe.

This DISTINCTION does not bode well for the GA.

No, they are not different because of a timeframe; they are different because an autonomous ship is running based on a prerecorded program and data points; while a remotely controlled ship is performing whatever commands the operator demands.

I think the Predator drone has both modes: the weapons are fired under operator control; but if the command link is dropped, then the drone will attempt to return to base.

However a kamikaze ship does not need either, it can be commanded by a crew that abandons ship in a hyper capable craft just before impact.

Relax wrote:Grav Waves.....??? MY ship would still have alpha nodes. Must have to go through wormholes. Hrmm, impeller is gone, so the compensator is ALSO gone right? Warshawki sails allow compensators? Trying to think about instances in the books, specifically HAE... Grav waves are just velocity multipliers and will not allow impellers.

Hrmm, can't think of quotes and too lazy at moment to look it up.

IF had more time, I would make a better post.

Should have spelled my point out a little better; but I was trying to avoid my normal wall of text.

Yes I'd assumed your bulk carrier would be able to sail in grav waves. But what it can't do there is the 'put the crew on a shuttle' trick; because the shuttle can't survive in a grav wave. That means the bulk carrier's acceleration within the grav wave is limited to what its crew (who have to stay aboard) are comfortable with.



Though as someone else pointed out you could fix that issue by using a full-up small starship, that normally docked with the bulk carrier, rather than just a shuttle - since that would have the sails to independently transit the wave. However, presumably, it'd have to fly in formation the entire time the pair was within the 'wave -- since detaching or docking requires the smaller ship's sails to be down; and that's not survivable. (Or you could just accept low acceleration in a 'wave, and hope mostly for routes that let you get up to cruising speed before you encounter a 'wave)

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:In this case, what's the difference between remotely controlled or autonomous. Except for a certain timeframe.

This DISTINCTION does not bode well for the GA.

No, they are not different because of a timeframe; they are different because an autonomous ship is running based on a prerecorded program and data points; while a remotely controlled ship is performing whatever commands the operator demands.

I think the Predator drone has both modes: the weapons are fired under operator control; but if the command link is dropped, then the drone will attempt to return to base.

However a kamikaze ship does not need either, it can be commanded by a crew that abandons ship in a hyper capable craft just before impact.

Understood. But, you missed my point. Probably because my point was also a bit too "autonomous," hence, unclear.

The ins-and-outs or nuts-and-bolts of how unmanned warships is accomplished, is irrelevant. In the prose of a programmer, that notion has been assigned a variable. Once a "variable" gets you in the door, it can be exploited. That's the next iteration. It's definitely a bone thrown out by the author. I can envision ways the MA can exploit it with reckless abandon.

The timeframe I reference, is that at some point, either method has to have warm bodies aboard. At some point, technicians and engineers. If only in the initial deployment phase of the supporting systems. Lowest common denominator.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Relax wrote:Grav Waves.....??? MY ship would ...

IF had more time, I would make a better post.

Though as someone else pointed out you could fix that issue by using a full-up small starship, that normally docked with the bulk carrier,

Well, a 100Mton bulk carrier, would certainly have the space for a glorified large DB, or maybe small DD to dock on.

At some point the KISS principle is being broken here... and $$$ increase. Ah, economics... such a thrilling tale, everyone wishes to read. Enough of this boring space opera/battles, daring do! I say Enough! What the reader REALLY wants is a treatise on make believe economics...

cthia wrote:Understood. But, you missed my point. Probably because my point was also a bit too "autonomous," hence, unclear.

The ins-and-outs or nuts-and-bolts of how unmanned warships is accomplished, is irrelevant. In the prose of a programmer, that notion has been assigned a variable. Once a "variable" gets you in the door, it can be exploited. That's the next iteration. It's definitely a bone thrown out by the author. I can envision ways the MA can exploit it with reckless abandon.

The timeframe I reference, is that at some point, either method has to have warm bodies aboard. At some point, technicians and engineers. If only in the initial deployment phase of the supporting systems. Lowest common denominator.

Okay: if that is your point, it is already here. Mycroft is an unmanned space warfare system, which depends on a remote entry to initiate action. If the Malign, using a subverted agent, could hijack the command procedure; then they could reprogram the Identification Friend or Foe protocol and use the missiles to attack Home Fleet and even the home planet.

I do not expect RFC to ever allow autonomous warships in the Honorverse, but what is already there could do tremendous damage if hacked.