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The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign

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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:15 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:One of the things I think happens next has to do with the fact that Zilwicki is back in RMN space: everything he knows is going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb by ONI, including knowledge of the Cataphract's, etc. were supplied both to the PNE and Filareta, meaning that any known-to-be significant missile supplier's star system is likely to receive an highly unwelcome surprise in the form of a visiting GA- based task group. They don't necessarily have to blow the system's infrastructure to smithereens, just announce "this system is under blockade/embargo relative to military cargo".

That also has the advantage of probably keeping a big chunk of the SLN reserve in mothballs; what are those ships going to attack with really old missile tech, i.e. the Honorverse equivalent of long distance paintball launchers?

I would also have to think that systems like Yildun and those dominated by long time trans stellars formerly headquartered on or trading extensively with Mesa will be on that list; it serves the purposes of depriving the SLN of arms or weapons and the MAlign of the cover of darkness. Gotta be a whole lot of smoking guns lying around that mess.

Not clear how many smoking guns are left on Mesa. Houdini seems to have done a pretty good job of getting rid of any smoking guns that don't point right back to Mesa itself, rather than the MAlign.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by Vince   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:18 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:There is also the wormhole connection between Mesa (on the map) and Visigoth (not on the map). Visigoth is 60 light years from Beowulf, so is right next door to Beowulf on the scale of the map.

There are a few other wormholes listed in Shadow of Freedom that are not on the map either. Hopefully we will get an update map in the next book.


Yes, I noted the Visigoth wormhole on the map and I could not remember a time where I read about it being revealed or used. If it's other terminus is so close to Beowulf that might explain, at least in part, why those who choose to leave Beowulf settled on Mesa. That is, if they knew about the wormhole before hand. Other wise it just so much odd luck.

So what is the story on this Visigoth wormhole? If it's existence is well known then it would be of tremendous help in coordinating RMN forces in Beowulf and Mesa.

Mesa was not settled by Leonard Detweiller and his genetic superiority followers until the Visigoth wormhole was discovered and the survey found that one of its secondary termini lead to the Mesa system. The fact of where the Visigoth termini lead to (barring any undiscovered termini) is well known to the known galaxy, as Visigoth is a full Solarian League member:
Storm From the Shadows, Chapter wrote:It would no doubt have helped, in some ways, at least, if Leonard Detweiler had fully worked out his grand concept before establishing Manpower. No one could think of everything, unfortunately, and one thing Mesa's geneticists still hadn't been able to produce was prescience. Besides, he'd been provoked. His Detweiler Consortium had first settled Mesa in 1460 PD, migrating to its new home from Beowulf following the discovery of the Visigoth System's wormhole junction six T-years earlier. The Mesa System itself had first been surveyed in 1398, but until the astrogators discovered that it was home to one of the two secondary termini of the Visigoth Wormhole, it had been too far out in the back of beyond to attract development.
That changed when the Visigoth Wormhole survey was completed, and Detweiler had acquired the development rights from the system's original surveyors.
The fact that the planet Mesa, despite having quite a nice climate, also possessed a biosystem poorly suited to terrestrial physiology helped lower the price, given the expenses involved in terraforming. But Detweiler hadn't intended to terraform Mesa. Instead, he'd opted to "mesaform" the colonists through genetic engineering. That decision had been inevitable in light of Detweiler's condemnation of the "illogical, ignorant, unthinking, hysterical, Frankenstein fear" of the genetic modification of human beings which had hardened into almost instinctual repugnance over the five hundred T-years between Old Earth's Final War and his departure for Mesa. Still, however inevitable it might have been, it had not been popular with the Beowulf medical establishment of the time. Worse, the fact that Visigoth was barely sixty light-years from Beowulf had guaranteed that Mesa and Beowulf would remain close enough together (despite the hundreds of light-years between them through normal-space) to be a continuous irritant to one another, and Beowulf's unceasing condemnation of Detweiler's faith in the genetic perfectability of humanity had infuriated him. It was, after all, the entire reason he and those members of the Beowulf genetic establishment who shared his views had left Beowulf in the first place.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

The current Post Diaspora date in the Honorverse is given as October 1922 Post Diaspora as of the heading just before Chapter 55 of Cauldron of Ghosts. So the Visigoth wormhole has been known for a long time.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SharkHunter   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:07 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:One of the things I think happens next has to do with the fact that Zilwicki is back in RMN space: everything he knows is going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb by ONI, including knowledge of the Cataphract's, etc. were supplied both to the PNE and Filareta, meaning that any known-to-be significant missile supplier's star system is likely to receive an highly unwelcome surprise in the form of a visiting GA- based task group. They don't necessarily have to blow the system's infrastructure to smithereens, just announce "this system is under blockade/embargo relative to military cargo".

That also has the advantage of probably keeping a big chunk of the SLN reserve in mothballs; what are those ships going to attack with really old missile tech, i.e. the Honorverse equivalent of long distance paintball launchers?

I would also have to think that systems like Yildun and those dominated by long time trans stellars formerly headquartered on or trading extensively with Mesa will be on that list; it serves the purposes of depriving the SLN of arms or weapons and the MAlign of the cover of darkness. Gotta be a whole lot of smoking guns lying around that mess.

Not clear how many smoking guns are left on Mesa. Houdini seems to have done a pretty good job of getting rid of any smoking guns that don't point right back to Mesa itself, rather than the MAlign.
Houdini didn't take all the tran stellar bureaucrats and their records with them, all sorts of interesting bits. Knowing whose been bribed and corrupted throughout the rest of the SL by the transtellars, shipping records through Balescu Station, etc. all useful information bits proving the MAlign's penetration, etc. Nice roadmap, plus Herlander Simoes is also in Manticoran space and obvioiusly will trust Zilwicki implicitly. Consider what happens if our favorite super spies discover that Jack McBryde had family, and they're not on Mesa, anymore, hmmmm.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by SWM   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:38 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Why would the GA/RMN will allow any multi-polity systems with substantial navies into "alliance", especially during wartime (which will continue against the MAlign until it's found and stomped? Picture what an attack killing a population half the size of NYC would have triggered from the US or that the bombing of Britain triggered in WWII. That's the position I would take if I were one of Manticore's diplomats, that negotiating anything long term would have a huge amount of disclosure required. It's sort of why NATO is still US dominated (versus hey, here's how you build ship/aircraft/missile of type X, contract sellable to anyone we think might be a friend!) and the JDF is relatively tiny, 70 years after surrenders were signed.

I don't think anyone has suggested that RF systems would be permitted to join the Grand Alliance. What people have suggested is that the Grand Alliance aims to break the Solarian League into smaller pieces, which they can make peaceful arrangements with. They understand that such smaller pieces would naturally aggregate around systems which can already defend neighbors, and this is exactly what the RF is already planning to do. So the RF systems and the clusters of affiliated systems that they will form are exactly the kind of systems that the Alliance wants to encourage.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by n7axw   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:23 pm

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I would expect that the primary clues about the Alignment will happen because Houdini was too hastily executed. Someone whose relatives died in the blasts will be left behind and be furious about it. A computer with critical info on it turns up not destroyed. Zach and Gail are now out there without their keeper. Something. It was too complated to start with and far too messy not to "leak".

Don
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:50 pm

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n7axw wrote:I would expect that the primary clues about the Alignment will happen because Houdini was too hastily executed. Someone whose relatives died in the blasts will be left behind and be furious about it. A computer with critical info on it turns up not destroyed. Zach and Gail are now out there without their keeper. Something. It was too complated to start with and far too messy not to "leak".

Don


Didn't one of them die? I think it was Gail. But yes, I think that that little string is going to get pulled and lots of things are going to come unraveled. What was the specialty of Zack? Anything to do with spider drives?

In some way he needs to make his way into Manty hands. Maybe the location of where he departs the cargo ship he is on will give a big clue to someone where Darius is.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by n7axw   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:29 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
n7axw wrote:I would expect that the primary clues about the Alignment will happen because Houdini was too hastily executed. Someone whose relatives died in the blasts will be left behind and be furious about it. A computer with critical info on it turns up not destroyed. Zach and Gail are now out there without their keeper. Something. It was too complated to start with and far too messy not to "leak".

Don


Didn't one of them die? I think it was Gail. But yes, I think that that little string is going to get pulled and lots of things are going to come unraveled. What was the specialty of Zack? Anything to do with spider drives?

In some way he needs to make his way into Manty hands. Maybe the location of where he departs the cargo ship he is on will give a big clue to someone where Darius is.


No. Gail didn't die. There were three in the party, one of whose name I don't remember who died in the incident with the Gaol (sp). Gail and Zack were the survivors.

The destination of the slaver they are on might turn out to be a clue, especially if someone else is captured that allows for some cross referencing. The incident is in COG.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:27 pm

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n7axw wrote:I would expect that the primary clues about the Alignment will happen because Houdini was too hastily executed. Someone whose relatives died in the blasts will be left behind and be furious about it. A computer with critical info on it turns up not destroyed. Zach and Gail are now out there without their keeper. Something. It was too complated to start with and far too messy not to "leak".

Don
StealthSeeker wrote:
Didn't one of them die? I think it was Gail. But yes, I think that that little string is going to get pulled and lots of things are going to come unraveled. What was the specialty of Zack? Anything to do with spider drives?

In some way he needs to make his way into Manty hands. Maybe the location of where he departs the cargo ship he is on will give a big clue to someone where Darius is.
n7axw wrote:
No. Gail didn't die. There were three in the party, one of whose name I don't remember who died in the incident with the Gaol (sp). Gail and Zack were the survivors.

The destination of the slaver they are on might turn out to be a clue, especially if someone else is captured that allows for some cross referencing. The incident is in COG.

Don

Stefka Juarez was the woman who was killed on Zach ship. the other two people in his evacuation group who were killed on the other ship were Lisa Charteris and Joseph van Vleet.

I agree that Zach and Gail are going to be crucial in the future. RFC spent way too much on what was an apparently meaningless sub-plot for it not to be important down the road. It was mentioned earlier that Jack McBryde had family, and that they are no longer on Mesa. Except that they are - everyone except Zach, who was killed in one of the many explosions that signaled Houdini. If there is positive proof that he died in one of those explosions (for example, listed as one of the attendees at the conference Lisa Charteris was to speak at, as she was), and he later turns up alive, it is going to be proof positive of Houdini, and the MALign's plan will start springing more leaks.
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The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by n7axw   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:24 pm

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I just went back and reread that part of COG. One thing I had wrong was that it was Zach who killed the Gaul, not Gail.

I thought that it was a very sad part of the story. When Gail ends up holding Zach's hand at the end, it turned out bittersweet.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The enemy in "extended space": SLN or MAlign
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:27 pm

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kzt wrote:
Uroboros wrote:... When exactly was Simoes gifted with this knowledge?

There was a comment is a story along the lines of how the Twins had been the subject of numerous PhDs for MA hyperspace physicists. Want to bet who one of these is?


I don't remember the Ph.D theses, but Zack did say that it was still a matter of speculation in his shop, and there were at least six different theories about how it could have happened. Since Simoes is a hyper-physicist who is far enough in to be working on the Streak Drive, it would be awfully strange if he didn't know all about it. He most likely hasn't realized it's important - remember the comments on both sides about how clueless he is about anything except his own specialty. I expect he knows everything about the Torch wormhole except where it's located, what the system name is and why it's important to everyone. He probably also knows the catalog number of The Twins; RFC mentioned it several times. He probably also knows about the Felix junction with the same caveats: he probably doesn't know where it is, what the name is, where the other termini go or why it's important.
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