Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

drothgery wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Why would Maya want obsolete SL wallers. They already have a bunch of more modern ones under construction at Erehwon. You could give them to Erehwon for deconstruction for materials, but there doesn't seem to be much other use for them.

The SLN wallers are a solution in search of a problem. There's just no mission that makes sense for them. Anything they can fight can run away from them easily (so you can scare off low-budget pirates, but you can't catch them), and even hack-job Haven-style modern LACs and single-drive missiles in system defense pods provide far better quasi-fixed defenses for far lower operational costs.

Edit: And anyone with the infrastructure to support a squadron of wallers almost certainly is capable of building Haven-style modern LACs and SDM system-defense pods.

No, there is something they can fight that cannot run away from them.

Other SLN SDs.

And one of these books will perhaps show us the SLN showing that it really is competent at the very tactical level, namely two SD walls composed of Scientist classes engaging each other.

phillies wrote:And one of these books will perhaps show us the SLN showing that it really is competent at the very tactical level, namely two SD walls composed of Scientist classes engaging each other.

I suspect you're correct that we will see a battle between two walls of Scientists.

I suspect that you're wrong that it will show that the SLN is tactically competent.

The most likely scenario is a System Defense Force facing down a SLN task force with the more realistic training and better-than-canned software for the EW systems and decoys of the SDF exposing the flaws in the SLN's rote-behavior exercises.

RFC has shown us Horace Harkness' opinion of SLN hardware, software and training, and he's shown us the People's Navy in Exile (PNE)opinion of SLN hardware and software, and he's given us a precis of SLN training -- favored commanders and tactical officers get a per-exercise look at the prescribed solution to tactical exercises.

There are undoubtedly a few SLN officers who do have a clue or two, but they're not popular people and aren't nearly the rank they should be; They certainly aren't commanding any Battle Fleet SDs.

Let's say some kind of timewarp from a parallel universe brought every single WW2 Imperial Japanese vessel a few hundred miles away from a modern USN carrier battlegroup.

The USN is able to demonstrate total superiority, blowing up at least half the IJN vessels in the first strike. The rest of them surrender(assuming they don't fight to the death).

Now, what does the USN do with all those ships? They can't maintain them, they can't afford to nor justify refitting them and they're hopelessly ineffectual up against any navy equipped with modern missiles. Yes, you could use the bandages and hammocks aboard elsewhere, but...

This is the situation the honorverse is in when it comes to captured SLN assets. If the example isn't extreme enough, how about the Spanish Armada being captured by WW1's Grand Fleet? The Greek fleet that went to Troy up against Nelson's navy?

munroburton wrote:Let's say some kind of timewarp from a parallel universe brought every single WW2 Imperial Japanese vessel a few hundred miles away from a modern USN carrier battlegroup.

The USN is able to demonstrate total superiority, blowing up at least half the IJN vessels in the first strike. The rest of them surrender(assuming they don't fight to the death).

Now, what does the USN do with all those ships? They can't maintain them, they can't afford to nor justify refitting them and they're hopelessly ineffectual up against any navy equipped with modern missiles. Yes, you could use the bandages and hammocks aboard elsewhere, but...

This is the situation the honorverse is in when it comes to captured SLN assets. If the example isn't extreme enough, how about the Spanish Armada being captured by WW1's Grand Fleet? The Greek fleet that went to Troy up against Nelson's navy?

Or as Theemile has as his signature:

Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless

I think that line pretty much summarizes the situation. It's time to let it go people.

I find the wording of that interesting, don't you?

- weapon platform -

So Dw has said that they are useles for weapons, but if this is anything like some of the clues he's told us before, he has a plan somewhere......

So ignoring weapons, what does that leave the ships capable of then? What purpose could SLN ships be put to use doing that GA mothballed can't?

fallsfromtrees wrote:Or as Theemile has as his signature:

Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless

I think that line pretty much summarizes the situation. It's time to let it go people.

Hi FallsFromTrees,

Given the various explanations if not excuses of what happened to Lester's undamaged 68 RHN SDP's after the BoMA or First Manticore [though it wasn't], some of us old bar hands suspect RFC has something underhanded, NTM nefarious in mind for all the SLN ships the GA has and will capture.

Yes, the FF warships are closer to First Haven War capabilities, and could be very useful at least as training ships, scarecrows etc in the TQ and elsewhere.

Keep in mind that until SoF, Commodore Thurgood only had a division of CA's as his largest most powerful unit, because even FF BC's were very rare in that part of the verge.

We don't know where RFC will have Meyers will come in as, another Sidemore, or a budding Grayson, NTM what the TQ will be either.

The BF Scientist class SD's are only 80% the size of the First Haven War SD's, ie very close to the last RMN dreadnought class of 6.75 MT from the SVW appendix, which HoS states were simply too small to handle the missile storms SDP's could launch, which is why the RMN retired its last 6 DN's in 1920 apparently.

However one systems' scrap can be another system's salvation.

Once the BF reserve SD's are destroyed, those relatively few SD's that remain will be highly $ought after by those without such a defensive bulwark, and the SEM could certainly use some extra cash if each BF SD is worth M$50B, possibly M$60B, given that most [probably 90% of SL members] don't have anything close to such firepower, and might be willing to pay even more for such protection over the next 4-5 years, until they can build their own.

Several trillion is still several trillion Manticoran dollars, and I can see RFC having some Manticorans from Elisabeth on down enjoying having the SL help pay for rebuilding Manticore's infrastructure.

L

fallsfromtrees wrote:

munroburton wrote:Let's say some kind of timewarp from a parallel universe brought every single WW2 Imperial Japanese vessel a few hundred miles away from a modern USN carrier battlegroup.

The USN is able to demonstrate total superiority, blowing up at least half the IJN vessels in the first strike. The rest of them surrender(assuming they don't fight to the death).

Now, what does the USN do with all those ships? They can't maintain them, they can't afford to nor justify refitting them and they're hopelessly ineffectual up against any navy equipped with modern missiles. Yes, you could use the bandages and hammocks aboard elsewhere, but...

This is the situation the honorverse is in when it comes to captured SLN assets. If the example isn't extreme enough, how about the Spanish Armada being captured by WW1's Grand Fleet? The Greek fleet that went to Troy up against Nelson's navy?

Or as Theemile has as his signature:

Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless

I think that line pretty much summarizes the situation. It's time to let it go people.

lyonheart wrote:Hi FallsFromTrees,

Given the various explanations if not excuses of what happened to Lester's undamaged 68 RHN SDP's after the BoMA or First Manticore [though it wasn't], some of us old bar hands suspect RFC has something underhanded, NTM nefarious in mind for all the SLN ships the GA has and will capture.

Yes, the FF warships are closer to First Haven War capabilities, and could be very useful at least as training ships, scarecrows etc in the TQ and elsewhere.

Keep in mind that until SoF, Commodore Thurgood only had a division of CA's as his largest most powerful unit, because even FF BC's were very rare in that part of the verge.

We don't know where RFC will have Meyers will come in as, another Sidemore, or a budding Grayson, NTM what the TQ will be either.

The BF Scientist class SD's are only 80% the size of the First Haven War SD's, ie very close to the last RMN dreadnought class of 6.75 MT from the SVW appendix, which HoS states were simply too small to handle the missile storms SDP's could launch, which is why the RMN retired its last 6 DN's in 1920 apparently.

However one systems' scrap can be another system's salvation.

Once the BF reserve SD's are destroyed, those relatively few SD's that remain will be highly $ought after by those without such a defensive bulwark, and the SEM could certainly use some extra cash if each BF SD is worth M$50B, possibly M$60B, given that most [probably 90% of SL members] don't have anything close to such firepower, and might be willing to pay even more for such protection over the next 4-5 years, until they can build their own.

Several trillion is still several trillion Manticoran dollars, and I can see RFC having some Manticorans from Elisabeth on down enjoying having the SL help pay for rebuilding Manticore's infrastructure.

L

I think that line pretty much summarizes the situation. It's time to let it go people.

[/quote]

The problem is that most captured SLN SDs will be in the GAs hands. So if you want to buy one you need to be on reasonable good terms with at least some member of the GA. And if you approach them, they would most likely advise you to buy the export version of the latest battle cruiser instead. You would get more bang for your buck and the GA member would make more money in the long run, if you account for spare part and upgrades you will buy in the long run.

lyonheart wrote:Once the BF reserve SD's are destroyed, those relatively few SD's that remain will be highly $ought after by those without such a defensive bulwark, and the SEM could certainly use some extra cash if each BF SD is worth M$50B, possibly M$60B, given that most [probably 90% of SL members] don't have anything close to such firepower, and might be willing to pay even more for such protection over the next 4-5 years, until they can build their own.

Several trillion is still several trillion Manticoran dollars, and I can see RFC having some Manticorans from Elisabeth on down enjoying having the SL help pay for rebuilding Manticore's infrastructure.

L

System defense forces are also moving at high speed, for League systems, from something of a luxury to a really, really good idea. They're many of them going to be building up from nothing to a lot more in a hurry, with an increasing concern about pirates, slavers, and warlords with other SLN materiel. So an old SD that you can buy for a song represents the core of a new SDF. It's not by any means a balanced, modern, or fully effective one, but it beats nothing, and there's again that bit where you bought it for a song. At worst, it's a training vehicle for new crews for a more reasonable and more modern SDF.

Manticore, meanwhile, gets not only that money - selling it for a song still comes ahead of scrap value or no value - and a happy diplomatic boost with that system, but also a little less concern about a bit of chaos around that star system.

Later, well, they may make good museum ships. In between training time and "don't mess with us, pirate cruiser, we've got a SD!", they may be refitted as a control node for system defense missile platforms. Building one of those from the keel up would be a lot better, but if you're a system with an otherwise obsolete capital ship hull and no stellar amount of cash... it may be attractive.

Hi SpaceKiwi,

I'm very glad you caught that.

"Weapon platform" has a rather different connotation than warship, primarily something much less mobile.

The implication of something other than an orbital fort could be quite accurate, because orbital forts have more firepower and protection, ton for ton, than a warship could; given all that's dedicated to getting it to move faster than a fort [NTM in hyper etc], which moves slowly to avoid being a sitting duck.

So, was RFC simply restating the obvious, or was he hinting that the captured BF SD's could be very useful to someone not worried about the GA attacking, but lesser threats?

Given that in the SL assembly, the Executive Council, the majority of members [~910] have only 2-3 members, almost a third having only one, so that total might be only around 1453 or an eighth of the membership, which then begs the question of how many of the other half of those that supported Beowulf [2912, IIRC] were from similar low membership systems.

Since the minimum membership of this group starts at 4, I'll suggest the average of 5, for another 290 systems or ~1200 out of ~1784, ie possibly just over 2/3 of all SL members.

If I were the GA, those would be among the first I'd consider worth checking as potential allies, or at least trading pardners, etc.

While most of the shells etc have more warships than the core systems that depended on the SLN, with only LAC's to defend them, if only ~5-10% had wallers the other 90-95% might want at least one for balance, so 'ABC' type treaties are quite possible.

If said potential pardner or ally wanted an SD parked in system to scare away potential raiders, the GA has some 600+ old wallers, before adding the IAN's 311, before getting to the 118 BF SD's the GA has so far without the 70 damaged SD's that some SL members might consider repairing though they're certainly not worth the GA's time and effort.

Potentially those 1000+ old wallers could be worth around M$50-60 Trillion, not a small piece of change during such terrible economic times.

L


[quote="Spacekiwi"]I find the wording of that interesting, don't you?

- weapon platform -

So Dw has said that they are useles for weapons, but if this is anything like some of the clues he's told us before, he has a plan somewhere......

So ignoring weapons, what does that leave the ships capable of then? What purpose could SLN ships be put to use doing that GA mothballed can't?



[quote="fallsfromtrees"]
Or as Theemile has as his signature:[quote]Duckk wrote:Since the idea of using the SLN ships has come and gone for several years now, I thought I'd solicit David's comments on this topic:
<snip>
As far as weapons platforms go, they’re pretty useless *quote**quote**quote**quote*
I think that line pretty much summarizes the situation. It's time to let it go people.*quote**quote*

lyonheart wrote:Given the various explanations if not excuses of what happened to Lester's undamaged 68 RHN SDP's after the BoMA or First Manticore [though it wasn't], some of us old bar hands suspect RFC has something underhanded, NTM nefarious in mind for all the SLN ships the GA has and will capture.

There was more like a dozen undamaged RHN ships in 2nd fleet at the end, with another dozen or two lightly damaged, with the rest ranging from moderately damaged to being full m-kills or f-kills barely holding together.