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Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Icarium   » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:10 pm

Icarium
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

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Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:24 am

cthia wrote:The passage that seals the deal for me is when everyone was sitting around brainstorming. Elizabeth, Caparelli, Honor, Hamish...and Honor was the only one who saw how to defeat the League.


I don't really agree, though I see your point. I don't think she's wired for strategy the same way she is tactics, and you don't just 'get better' at something to the point you're the best ever without hugely innate talent. ;)

I more see that as Honor being the only one not phased by the immensity of what they're facing. She's 'like a treecat' in that she cuts to the point, which again doesn't leave so much for long-term strategic planning.

Like I have said. She's good! But I can't see her doing what Hamish and McQueen did, hugely-long-term feints and movements, or Caparelli as well, over years and years to trick the enemy just so one can destroy logistics maybe five years later, and so on.

But opinions do vary. :) Not saying she's not /good/, just that she's not the best or near-best.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by TheMonster   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:20 am

TheMonster
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:22 am

Tenshinai wrote:Or, if you´re a REALLY good strategist, strategy tells you how to win the war with minimal or even completely without fighting.
To do that generally requires moving up from strategy to Grand Strategy (which, despite its similar name, really is a separate level). Once you start including diplomacy, economics, etc., that's where you're operating.

The MAlign is all about GS (having very little in the way of actual military power to use at the strategic level, but insane amounts of power it can bring to bear indirectly via various machinations), but Manticore has Estelle Matsuko, without whom there might not be a Star Empire, just the Kingdom and its protectorates. And Roger III has to be considered a darned good grand strategist based on HoS. His daughter and her closest advisors aren't doing too badly either.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by roseandheather   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:34 am

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
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Location: Republic of Haven

TheMonster wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:Or, if you´re a REALLY good strategist, strategy tells you how to win the war with minimal or even completely without fighting.
To do that generally requires moving up from strategy to Grand Strategy (which, despite its similar name, really is a separate level). Once you start including diplomacy, economics, etc., that's where you're operating.

The MAlign is all about GS (having very little in the way of actual military power to use at the strategic level, but insane amounts of power it can bring to bear indirectly via various machinations), but Manticore has Estelle Matsuko, without whom there might not be a Star Empire, just the Kingdom and its protectorates. And Roger III has to be considered a darned good grand strategist based on HoS. His daughter and her closest advisors aren't doing too badly either.


:o :shock: 8-) :twisted: :mrgreen:

LOOK AT MY BABY GO!!

I always get cranky when people underestimate my darling. I'd go so far as to say that, with the possible exceptions of Eloise and Elizabeth, there is not a better politician in the entire Honorverse. She is damned good at what she does, and more people need to love her. (Except not, because mine. *cough*) :P
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:29 am

Tenshinai
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TheMonster wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:Or, if you´re a REALLY good strategist, strategy tells you how to win the war with minimal or even completely without fighting.
To do that generally requires moving up from strategy to Grand Strategy (which, despite its similar name, really is a separate level). Once you start including diplomacy, economics, etc., that's where you're operating.


Oh but i wasn´t including diplomacy, economics etc. in that statement.

Sending Honor to Haven with Apollo-armed ships was a strategic win that cost nothing.
Because Haven knew they would be unable to stop her if she wanted to trash the place.

Not many good examples in the HH books though, as the HH-verse does not provide easy paths for this.

Try reading about "indirect approach" strategy.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:33 am

Tenshinai
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KNick wrote:
That´s decent enough if you add the "why" to the when and where.


Sorry to disagree with you on this one. The "why" had better be decided before you ever start planning strategy. It defines the strategy you are going to use.[/quote]

Uhm... That´s a VERY strange point of view.

Any attack or defense that does not have a strategic "why" is effectively a waste of resources.

If your strategy is based on destroying the enemies ability to build and service ships, then the "why" for as many attacks as possible should be "to destroy shipyards".

I have a feeling you´re mistaking "why go to war" with "why should a specific battle happen".
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by KNick   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:30 am

KNick
Admiral

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Location: Billings, MT, USA

Tenshinai wrote:
KNick wrote:
Sorry to disagree with you on this one. The "why" had better be decided before you ever start planning strategy. It defines the strategy you are going to use.


Uhm... That´s a VERY strange point of view.

Any attack or defense that does not have a strategic "why" is effectively a waste of resources.

If your strategy is based on destroying the enemies ability to build and service ships, then the "why" for as many attacks as possible should be "to destroy shipyards".

I have a feeling you´re mistaking "why go to war" with "why should a specific battle happen".


This is one of those places where definitions of strategy might differ. To me, the "why go to war" is what shapes the overall strategy. What are you trying to accomplish?

The "why this battle" is part of the tactics to accomplish your strategic goal.

The only example I can think of off hand would go something like this:
If I am defending my own territory I will attack the shipyards on planet A to deny them to my opponent.
If I am trying to take his territory away from him, I will attack and occupy planet A.

In both cases, a battle happens at planet A. The why in each case is different, as is the result. That difference is driven by the difference in overall strategy, rather than tactics, although the tactics for the two battles will also be different. In one case you are simply going to destroy everything. In the other, you are going to preserve as much as possible for your own use. One result is the same: you denied the shipyard to your enemy. The other results are different.

Which type of battle will be fought is a strategic decision, based on what the objective is.

Perhaps the difference in opinion is simply that to me tactics for a particular battle start at a much higher level. The tactics a navy uses in battle start with the training they receive, decided long before battle is joined. Perhaps even long before the war is thought about. The early training any officer receives stays with him throughout his career, all the way up to flag rank. That early training will shape how flag officers, based on their experience (if they have any), will train new officers. That training will shape how those new officers fight any battle.

The main difference in the Manticore-Haven war is that as technology improved, both sides underwent massive changes in both strategy and tactics. It went from being an existential war for Manticore and a war of aggression for Haven to a war of aggression for Manticore without losing its existential nature and an existential war for Haven without losing its aggressive nature. Every battle involved new tactics and new technology. Those changes reshaped thinking at the strategic level as well. It could not help but do so, as every battle entered new territory. War on that scale had never been contemplated, let alone occurred.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by runsforcelery   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:53 am

runsforcelery
First Space Lord

Posts: 2425
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Tenshinai wrote:
That´s decent enough if you add the "why" to the when and where.


KNick wrote:
Sorry to disagree with you on this one. The "why" had better be decided before you ever start planning strategy. It defines the strategy you are going to use.


Tenshinai wrote:
Uhm... That´s a VERY strange point of view.

Any attack or defense that does not have a strategic "why" is effectively a waste of resources.

If your strategy is based on destroying the enemies ability to build and service ships, then the "why" for as many attacks as possible should be "to destroy shipyards".

I have a feeling you´re mistaking "why go to war" with "why should a specific battle happen".


I’m finding this a very interesting discussion, whenever I have a chance to drop in on it. People are raising very cogent points, and the different way in which people parse the difference between strategy and tactics is fascinating. Obviously, I’m not going to tell you who falls where on my lists in these various categories.

For myself, I tend to divide the “art of war” into:

Grand Strategy: this is where national objectives are set and where all of the resources — military, diplomatic, economic, industrial, information, etc. — are utilized. The object of grand strategy is to determine what needs to be accomplished and how best to orchestrate all of those resources to the achievement of that/those objective(s). The grand strategists are supposed to be the ones to know what they have to work with, know what needs to be done, decide who to assign to do the doing, and prioritize competing theaters and goals at the highest level.

Theater Strategy: this might also be called “Campaign Strategy.” This is where people assigned by the grand strategists to accomplish specific goals go about accomplishing them. The sorts of issues they need to deal with might be “how do we win the war against the U-boats in the Atlantic” or “how do we deploy strategic air power against Germany” or “how do we invade France” or “how do we take the war to Japan through the Central Pacific.” Planning for those sorts of campaigns/operations takes place at this level, but so does execution and coordination.

Operational: this is the level where individual commanders within a theater or campaign strategy have to accomplish the tasks they are assigned. This would be the point at which a corps commander or a divisional commander or a fleet commander looks at his assigned mission and his resources and whatever support might be available from assets not under his direct command and decides how he’s going to apply them.

Tactical: this is the level where the battles are actually fought. This is the point at which unit movements decide the outcome of the engagement. For an army, this would traditionally involve units below the regimental level; for a fleet commander things are going to be a little different (usually) because individual warships (which would be the equivalent of the “regimental level or below”) don’t usually maneuver as individuals, but rather as components of a task force or a squadron.

This is horribly simplified, of course, and I’m sure people could pick all sorts of holes in it because it contains certain assumptions on my part that are so fundamental I don’t see any need to explicate them more fully.

As far as Honor’s abilities at the tactical, operational, strategic, and grand strategic levels (as I’ve defined them above) are concerned, I think it should be borne in mind that just as we haven’t had a chance to see Caparelli perform at the tactical level, we haven’t seen Honor have a chance to perform equally at all levels. She’s only really been admitted to the strategy/grand strategy level in the last two or three “Honor” books, and I sometimes think when someone’s performed outstandingly at a lower level in my hierarchy, people tend to consider them failures at a higher level unless they perform at least equally or even more spectacularly.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by phillies   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:49 pm

phillies
Admiral

Posts: 2077
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The innocent reader trying to decide who is the greatest strategist/tactician in the mind of the author might, of course, invoke the metainformation. This is the *Honor Harrington* series, not the *Glorious Triumphs of Invincible Solarian League Navy Admiral of the Starry Seas Crandall* series, and there is a clue there somehow.

The illustrious author's last sentence gives away Honor's strategic competence.

With respect to the other people, let's see -- Saganami has a book named after him. Several hints have been dropped about Hearns and the youngest Zilwicki. The usual senior-ranking RMN and RHN suspects who have had much face time fit in there someplace.

runsforcelery wrote:
I’m finding this a very interesting discussion, whenever I have a chance to drop in on it. People are raising very cogent points, and the different way in which people parse the difference between strategy and tactics is fascinating. Obviously, I’m not going to tell you who falls where on my lists in these various categories.

For myself, I tend to divide the “art of war” into:

Grand Strategy: this is where national objectives are set and where all of the resources — military, diplomatic, economic, industrial, information, etc. — are utilized. The object of grand strategy is to determine what needs to be accomplished and how best to orchestrate all of those resources to the achievement of that/those objective(s). The grand strategists are supposed to be the ones to know what they have to work with, know what needs to be done, decide who to assign to do the doing, and prioritize competing theaters and goals at the highest level.

Theater Strategy: this might also be called “Campaign Strategy.” This is where people assigned by the grand strategists to accomplish specific goals go about accomplishing them. The sorts of issues they need to deal with might be “how do we win the war against the U-boats in the Atlantic” or “how do we deploy strategic air power against Germany” or “how do we invade France” or “how do we take the war to Japan through the Central Pacific.” Planning for those sorts of campaigns/operations takes place at this level, but so does execution and coordination.

Operational: this is the level where individual commanders within a theater or campaign strategy have to accomplish the tasks they are assigned. This would be the point at which a corps commander or a divisional commander or a fleet commander looks at his assigned mission and his resources and whatever support might be available from assets not under his direct command and decides how he’s going to apply them.

Tactical: this is the level where the battles are actually fought. This is the point at which unit movements decide the outcome of the engagement. For an army, this would traditionally involve units below the regimental level; for a fleet commander things are going to be a little different (usually) because individual warships (which would be the equivalent of the “regimental level or below”) don’t usually maneuver as individuals, but rather as components of a task force or a squadron.

This is horribly simplified, of course, and I’m sure people could pick all sorts of holes in it because it contains certain assumptions on my part that are so fundamental I don’t see any need to explicate them more fully.

As far as Honor’s abilities at the tactical, operational, strategic, and grand strategic levels (as I’ve defined them above) are concerned, I think it should be borne in mind that just as we haven’t had a chance to see Caparelli perform at the tactical level, we haven’t seen Honor have a chance to perform equally at all levels. She’s only really been admitted to the strategy/grand strategy level in the last two or three “Honor” books, and I sometimes think when someone’s performed outstandingly at a lower level in my hierarchy, people tend to consider them failures at a higher level unless they perform at least equally or even more spectacularly.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by phillies   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:55 pm

phillies
Admiral

Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Worcester, MA

Having said that, I expect the creativity of the illustrious author to surprise us greatly. For starters, the Mesan Alignment likely has some good people. And perhaps Admiral Chin will have a battle in which she surprises the enemy instead of the other way around.
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Re: Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:39 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Oh wow, you guys have been busy. Sorry for my absence, fiancee's family weekend. It is my loss!

Latest approved email snippets. A different guy enters the pic. One of the other's brother...

[a few snips]
Your brother is an odd fellow. He seems to be majoring in idiocy. If that is the case he should just skip ahead to grad school. He's ready for the commencement exercises and shall be receiving an advanced degree.
[snip]
You're a bit hard on him. He felt at odds that he was attracted to someone so young and was thrown off guard that you are so intelligent.
[snip]
No he shouldn't use it as support for his following attitude. Many people have easily bruised egos. None want to be dumber than a fifth grader. No you're not a fifth grader. It's just that he is a senior and he expects himself to be smarter than a twelve year old. After reading your first email that they submitted to me I'm not sure I'm qualified to talk to you.
[snip snip]
I told you. My interest began with the game 'Stratego' when I was about a year old. Strategy is greek for "the art of the general." Not Stratego. You misunderstood.
[snip]
You can find tactics in basketball? You put that in your first email. How is military tactics found in basketball?
[snip]
I don't think they understand the difference between "strategy" and "tactics." I was searching for common ground. I tried to explain the different types of maneuvers and I settled on "penetration." They wanted to make something sexual of it. It's simply a maneuver to break the enemy line, used in conjunction with other attacks along the line to occupy the enemy forces and prevent their concentration..
[snip]
But how does that apply to basketball? Basketball doesn't need such elaborate attacks.
[snip]
Penetration is when the guard dribbles deep into the defense. Since he can easily score from such a vantage point it causes the defense to collapse, drawing other players to assist. The ball is then passed off for an easy score.
[huge snip]
But Nathan Bedford Forest's only strategy was, and I quote "To get there first with the most men." You sound as if you are disputing that and it belonged to Nathan. Yet earlier you said it was sound. I know I'm just a guy but that sounds contradictory.
[snip]
Yes, that was one of Nathan's principles. But Nathan fought during a different era. Technological advancements quickly change the paradigm of strategy and tactics. What I said was that during his era it was a sound principle. But during today's technologically advanced warfare you can't just rely on forces en masse. The difference now is manifold, not the least of which is air superiority. It won't matter if you've managed to preposition fifty thousand troops to face the enemy's five thousand if the smaller force has air superiority with several jets flying overhead dropping napalm. An attritional win by cooking.
[snip]
My entire point is that you cannot marry yourself to a set form of principles thinking they will be appropriate in every situation. They won't.
[snip]
What I was saying about Halsey is his mistake was holding his huge American navy together (En Masse). Instead of maneuvering his huge force into two prongs of attack. He ended up concentrated En Masse, but facing a decoy Japanese fleet. If he had split his forces, either of his forces could have dealt with each Japanese fleet. That was his mistake at Leyte Gulf, Don't you agree?
[snip]
How do you know so much about strategy and tactics? You're so young.
[snip]
What does age have to do with it? All of the information can be found in books and the internet. Neither are off limits to twelve year olds you know. And I like chess, as I told you before. My Uncle taught me how to play when I was one year old after he grew tired of playing stratego. I grew tired of losing at chess. I read Minor Tactics of Chess, Major Tactics of Chess and Grand Tactics. They remain amongst my favorite books. I am always listening for examples of strategy and tactics.
[snip]
I've only read the first two and the last. I like them but not enough to form a list. How long would I have?
[snip]
Not enough time. We have extended the deadline until next weekend. Can you read that fast?
[snip]
Are you dating?
[snip]
Last edited by cthia on Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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