Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

penny wrote:It has been suggested that there might be a smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark. More recently in another thread ThinksMarkedly suggested a ship the size of a CA.

I don’t see the MAN needing screening elements. But in a pinch the Ghosts, or some smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark might screen for an LD to allow it to escape, maneuver, etc. Possible? All spider ships have the same acceleration. Right?* Unlike GA ships where the smaller ships have a higher accel.

Or am I incorrect that smaller spider ships will also manage the same 150g? Is the accel of a Shark vs the proposed accel of an LD the same?

Since a Ghost has no offensive armament, it could not be part of a screening element. We do not know its actual size, just that is is small. A warship for screening probably would be bigger (if such were needed).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:It has been suggested that there might be a smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark. More recently in another thread ThinksMarkedly suggested a ship the size of a CA.

I don’t see the MAN needing screening elements. But in a pinch the Ghost’s, or some smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark might screen for an LD to allow it to escape, maneuver, etc. Possible? All spider ships have the same acceleration. Right?* Unlike GA ships where the smaller ships have a higher accel.

Or am I incorrect that smaller spider ships will also manage the same 150g? Is the accel of a Shark vs the proposed accel of an LD the same?

No, acceleration depends on the size of the ship to mount the spider tractors on. So bigger ships have higher maximum acceleration, in theory. The squishy human beings on the inside put an upper limit on that, at 250 gravities.

We don't know what size of ship achieves that. I assume it's something below the size of a Shark, meaning a Shark-class and a Leonard Detweiler-class ship have the exact same acceleration and limitations.

But can a Ghost reach the 250? Can it reach even the 150 gravities that the grav plates can handle? We're told a torpedo cannot go above "a few hundred gravities" and a Ghost is bigger than a torpedo, so maybe the upper limit is reached at something the size of the torpedo and therefore all spider warships would have the same accelerations.

In any case, I wasn't talking about escort elements. A CA- or BC-sized spider ship could be an effective armed scout, carrying Ninurta pods to deploy against secondary or tertiary targets. Or mines.

Of course. I was simply wondering if it is a possible tactic in a pinch. The CA(S) should be carrying some sort of CMs I'd think.

tlb wrote:Since a Ghost has no offensive armament, it could not be part of a screening element. We do not know its actual size, just that is is small. A warship for screening probably would be bigger (if such were needed).

I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for... erm... let's call them sensor ghosts... then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don't get hit, but if the missiles know there's a bigger ship out there, they won't be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC's control.

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for... erm... let's call them sensor ghosts... then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don't get hit, but if the missiles know there's a bigger ship out there, they won't be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC's control.

In any case, why wouldn't they create a screening ship with serious anti-missile capabilities; instead of using something that can only prove useful by dying?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for... erm... let's call them sensor ghosts... then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don't get hit, but if the missiles know there's a bigger ship out there, they won't be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC's control.

If the launch is an avalanche, they are simply searching. Pretty much the shot in the dark you suggested once upon a time in the HV.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for... erm... let's call them sensor ghosts... then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don't get hit, but if the missiles know there's a bigger ship out there, they won't be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC's control.

In any case, why wouldn't they create a screening ship with serious anti-missile capabilities; instead of using something that can only prove useful by dying?

Indeed. The CA(S) could be configured with CM pods as an option. Consider the CM ship I suggested for GA ships that didn't go over so well. Are you suggesting that it is feasible for the MAN?

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles are incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for... erm... let's call them sensor ghosts... then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don't get hit, but if the missiles know there's a bigger ship out there, they won't be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC's control.

tlb wrote:In any case, why wouldn't they create a screening ship with serious anti-missile capabilities; instead of using something that can only prove useful by dying?

penny wrote:Indeed. The CA(S) could be configured with CM pods as an option. Consider the CM ship I suggested for GA ships that didn't go over so well. Are you suggesting that it is feasible for the MAN?

I have no idea, I leave most ship design to the author. In the past when all CM activity was within a light second of the ship, then the limiting factor was control links. TEiF gave me the impression that CM activity would need to reach out further, to counteract the terminal velocities of multi-drive missiles. I have no idea what the author will do; but using Apollo as a model, suggests a CM control missile with FTL communication to the ship and a multi-drive engine. This control missile would carry a pod's worth of CM's out to attack range and then provide the control links after they were released. Did you also suggest this?

However it would not be useful to defend spider drive ships with wedge driven missiles or CM's, since their track points right back to the ship. And the urgency of missile defense means you cannot heave something out for a delayed ignition.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:It has been suggested that there might be a smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark. More recently in another thread ThinksMarkedly suggested a ship the size of a CA.

I don’t see the MAN needing screening elements. But in a pinch the Ghost’s, or some smaller spider ship in-between a Ghost and a Shark might screen for an LD to allow it to escape, maneuver, etc. Possible? All spider ships have the same acceleration. Right?* Unlike GA ships where the smaller ships have a higher accel.

Or am I incorrect that smaller spider ships will also manage the same 150g? Is the accel of a Shark vs the proposed accel of an LD the same?

No, acceleration depends on the size of the ship to mount the spider tractors on. So bigger ships have higher maximum acceleration, in theory. The squishy human beings on the inside put an upper limit on that, at 250 gravities.

We don't know what size of ship achieves that. I assume it's something below the size of a Shark, meaning a Shark-class and a Leonard Detweiler-class ship have the exact same acceleration and limitations.

But can a Ghost reach the 250? Can it reach even the 150 gravities that the grav plates can handle? We're told a torpedo cannot go above "a few hundred gravities" and a Ghost is bigger than a torpedo, so maybe the upper limit is reached at something the size of the torpedo and therefore all spider warships would have the same accelerations.

It's true the the number of emitters you can fit affect the drive's peak acceleration. And while never stated explicitly ship mass may have some effect as well (take two spider ships with the same size and power of emitters and if one is double the mass it likely has lower peak drive acceleration).

But for ships that seems largely irrelevant. Even something as small as a graser torpedo, the one place it is mentioned that a smaller drive limits acceleration, is still capable of "a few hundred gravities’ acceleration" [MoH].

And while MoH simply says of ships "smaller spider-drive ships had no acceleration advantage over larger ones." And "the maximum survivable normal-space acceleration for a spider drive-equipped ship was limited by the ability of currently available grav plate technology to offset the consequences of acceleration" [MoH]. Note it isn't specifically talking about Sharks here; just spider ships in general (and the infodump concludes by saying all this is how the strike forces [Sharks] and scouting forces [Ghosts] were able to "able to prowl undetected about both components of the Manticore Binary System for over two months" [MoH]


So, I am firmly of the belief that any spider ship, even one as small as "the roughly frigate-sized Ghost-class scout" [SftS] has a drive more than capable[1] of maxing out the internal grav plates.

Meaning I'm sure a Ghost can manage the same 150 g normal (210 g combat [4g experienced] & 310 g briefly for emergencies [9g experienced]) accelerations as a Shark or an LD.


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[1] I say "more than capable" because I assume some level of oversizing of the drive for redundancy. That'd permit the ship to still pull its full survivable accel even with some percentage of its individual spider emitters damaged or destroyed.

penny wrote:I suggested long ago that a Ghost might also screen for an LD by sacrificing itself. If an avalanche of missiles is incoming towards an LD, a Ghost in the vicinity might be able to drop its stealth or flutter its stealth to draw the missile fire.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:If the missiles are targeted, instead of just flying around and searching for… erm… let’s call them sensor ghosts… then the Ghost sacrifice might not help much. Yes, it is the job of escorts to sacrifice themselves so the bigger ships don’t get hit, but if the missiles know there’s a bigger ship out there, they won’t be too fooled, especially not Apollos under a CIC’s control.

penny wrote: If the launch is an avalanche, they are simply searching. Pretty much the shot in the dark you suggested once upon a time in the HV.

However, they MIGHT be fooled with a massed fluttering of the spider-drives from several smaller ships (or drones or platforms) that are in close proximity to each other. By happenstance or by design. Spider ships should be able to get a lot closer to each other than what wedges can accomplish. And the evasive maneuvers of the evading ship should be on a vector where the missiles cannot generate enough ∆V to vector toward the LD once, or if, they figure out they’ve been duped.

I question that an avalanche can be under CIC control unless a spider-drive detector is in the mix. Remember, without a spider-drive detector CIC is dependent upon the drones. Even with the drones sending data and a bearing back to the ship that something is fishy, CIC still won’t be able to lock on. It’ll just have an approximate vector because the drone itself won’t be able to lock on. And then the drone is gone. Destroyed.

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Smaller ships can screen for an LD to allow it to maneuver; a misdirection to possibly allow the LD to make a b-line for the planet.

Reminds me of a B2 bomber with escorts.

BTW. If an LD is in low orbit of the planet. Doesn’t it have control of the orbitals? Especially if nothing else is in orbit or anywhere near orbit. The LD has managed to sneak “behind” enemy lines and is between the defending force and the planet. With stealth that prevents GA missiles from getting a solid lock.

You simply cannot let something the size of a fort make a zero/zero intercept with the planet. Never has a zero/zero intercept sounded more ominous. The chances of that tactical situation being good is ZERO. The chances of the planet surviving it if it is in a bad mood… is ZERO.

Trying to target an LD in orbit of your planet from long range without it being locked up is dangerous.

It can make you shoot your own planet by sending a spider-drive platform to just miss the atmosphere of the planet, fluttering / stuttering its spider-drive and drawing the GA’s own missile launch towards the planet. In the same vein that a GA drone can mimic the wedge of a warship.

A question arises whether the spider drive signature from all spider drive sources have the same strength?; torpedo? Ghost? Shark? LD and any other spider ship? IOW, how do we know a spider drive detector that the GA may or may not develop will be able to determine the size of the source? Rather, simply, that a spider drive is operating in the system. Besides, I’m not so sure the size of the target is imparted to the Apollo control missile anyway??? The strength of the wedge might be. But not the size of the ship. Since they are related.

Can a spider-drive increase the strength of its signature making it appear to be from a larger / smaller ship? Would it even be necessary?


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Jonathan_S wrote:
It’s true the the number of emitters you can fit affect the drive’s peak acceleration. And while never stated explicitly ship mass may have some effect as well (take two spider ships with the same size and power of emitters and if one is double the mass it likely has lower peak drive acceleration).

But for ships that seems largely irrelevant. Even something as small as a graser torpedo, the one place it is mentioned that a smaller drive limits acceleration, is still capable of “a few hundred gravities’ acceleration” [MoH].

And while MoH simply says of ships “smaller spider-drive ships had no acceleration advantage over larger ones.” And “the maximum survivable normal-space acceleration for a spider drive-equipped ship was limited by the ability of currently available grav plate technology to offset the consequences of acceleration” [MoH]. Note it isn’t specifically talking about Sharks here; just spider ships in general (and the infodump concludes by saying all this is how the strike forces [Sharks] and scouting forces [Ghosts] were able to “able to prowl undetected about both components of the Manticore Binary System for over two months” [MoH]

So, I am firmly of the belief that any spider ship, even one as small as “the roughly frigate-sized Ghost-class scout” [SftS] has a drive more than capable[1] of maxing out the internal grav plates.

Meaning I’m sure a Ghost can manage the same 150 g normal (210 g combat [4g experienced] & 310 g briefly for emergencies [9g experienced]) accelerations as a Shark or an LD.

If true, this is a dynamic that has never existed in the HV until the MAN. Missiles are slower than warships???

Possibilities? Ghosts and a CA(S) or smaller unit can screen for missiles! Even a Shark can screen for missiles. Mines can screen for missiles. Missiles can screen for gtorps? Gtorps can screen for missiles. What???

Let me explain. If an LD has launched on a target and that system has units that are about to interfere with the incoming gtorps by setting up blocking wedges of tugboats, or if the enemy is on a vector that will possibly discover the gtorps, then a Shark or other spider warship can launch on the annoying targets; tugboats, etc. Or a Ghost or Shark or smaller units can intervene as well, as a distraction. IOW, plow the field for the incoming gtorps.

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penny wrote:Indeed. The CA(S) could be configured with CM pods as an option. Consider the CM ship I suggested for GA ships that didn’t go over so well. Are you suggesting that it is feasible for the MAN?

tlb wrote:I have no idea, I leave most ship design to the author. In the past when all CM activity was within a light second of the ship, then the limiting factor was control links. TEiF gave me the impression that CM activity would need to reach out further, to counteract the terminal velocities of multi-drive missiles. I have no idea what the author will do; but using Apollo as a model, suggests a CM control missile with FTL communication to the ship and a multi-drive engine. This control missile would carry a pod’s worth of CM’s out to attack range and then provide the control links after they were released. Did you also suggest this?

Ultimately we all leave warship design up to the author. But I don’t think it does any harm to speculate on the possibilities. The ? thread seems to support that notion. And we would certainly appreciate your opinions, as to what might work instead of what won’t. It’s more fun that way.

Not sure who suggested it. But I certainly recall being a part of the conversation. It seems intuitive that the MAN will figure out a way to exploit the range of their own FTL. Do consider that the stealth of the spider drive will allow the MAN to get Inside the reach of the GA’s long-ranged missiles. And attack from much closer ranges. I have been pointing that out. Hence, a specialized missile that maxes out the performance of its drives immediately. Leaving little to no time on its clock in very short ranges. In the piddling ranges ay which a spider can attack, FTL technology won’t be much of a problem.

tlb wrote:However it would not be useful to defend spider drive ships with wedge driven missiles or CM’s, since their track points right back to the ship. And the urgency of missile defense means you cannot heave something out for a delayed ignition.

Oh well.

The insanity of screening elements is that they are sacrificial lambs.

I question the veracity of that statement. Spider drive pods – carrying wedge based missiles – can initiate immediately. Spider driven pods will be slow compared to GA missiles but they will manage to gain some range from the LD that is itself executing appropriate evasive maneuvers. Then the wedges can light off on the CMs. If the GA launches from a long range then the point is moot because the LD will have time to deploy CM pods then scoot.

I still think the MAN can Pony Express their FTL platforms. During a battle they can launch several platforms to maintain a preset range from each other, handing off the FTL signal.

I did suggest that the MAN has long-range CMs that can be paired with the adequate range of their FTL technology for the application.

Consider that the MAN may be launching from much shorter ranges.

penny wrote:
Reminds me of a B2 bomber with escorts.

B2 bombers don't normally, as far as is known, have escorts.

And based on that the Air Force has said publicly they don't have any escorts that are as stealthy as the B2. The F22 is their stealthiest, definitely better than an F35 (especially from side or rear aspects), but it traded off some stealth capability for for better air-to-air maneuverability. (The YF-23 which was competing against it was stealthier, had better super-cruise, but wasn't quite as maneuverable -- but even that I don't think was as stealthy as a B2)

So, logically, any escort you could give it, including an F-22, is more detectable than the B2 and would serve to draw attention to the area it was in.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
It’s true the the number of emitters you can fit affect the drive’s peak acceleration. And while never stated explicitly ship mass may have some effect as well (take two spider ships with the same size and power of emitters and if one is double the mass it likely has lower peak drive acceleration).

But for ships that seems largely irrelevant. Even something as small as a graser torpedo, the one place it is mentioned that a smaller drive limits acceleration, is still capable of “a few hundred gravities’ acceleration” [MoH].

And while MoH simply says of ships “smaller spider-drive ships had no acceleration advantage over larger ones.” And “the maximum survivable normal-space acceleration for a spider drive-equipped ship was limited by the ability of currently available grav plate technology to offset the consequences of acceleration” [MoH]. Note it isn’t specifically talking about Sharks here; just spider ships in general (and the infodump concludes by saying all this is how the strike forces [Sharks] and scouting forces [Ghosts] were able to “able to prowl undetected about both components of the Manticore Binary System for over two months” [MoH]

So, I am firmly of the belief that any spider ship, even one as small as “the roughly frigate-sized Ghost-class scout” [SftS] has a drive more than capable[1] of maxing out the internal grav plates.

Meaning I’m sure a Ghost can manage the same 150 g normal (210 g combat [4g experienced] & 310 g briefly for emergencies [9g experienced]) accelerations as a Shark or an LD.

If true, this is a dynamic that has never existed in the HV until the MAN. Missiles are slower than warships???

Possibilities? Ghosts and a CA(S) or smaller unit can screen for missiles! Even a Shark can screen for missiles. Mines can screen for missiles. Missiles can screen for gtorps? Gtorps can screen for missiles. What???

Let me explain. If an LD has launched on a target and that system has units that are about to interfere with the incoming gtorps by setting up blocking wedges of tugboats, or if the enemy is on a vector that will possibly discover the gtorps, then a Shark or other spider warship can launch on the annoying targets; tugboats, etc. Or a Ghost or Shark or smaller units can intervene as well, as a distraction. IOW, plow the field for the incoming gtorps.

I don't think the graser torps are lower acceleration than the ships. "A few hundred gravities" should mean three to four hundred. (If it was less than 200g RFC almost certainly would have said "couple hundred"). And the quickest sustainable acceleration a manned spider ship can manage is 210g -- which should be significantly more sluggish than a gtorp. And even if the ship redlined its grav plates all the way up to the 'brief duration only' 310g (an acceleration the book basically says outright the crew is combat ineffective at) I still think the gtorp is likely going to pull away.

So, unless you order the gtorps to accelerate slower I don't think the ship is keeping up. OTOH there's no reason to expect a gtorp's spider drive to have the same limitations of an impeller missile; so it likely can vary its acceleration. So if for some reason you wanted it to creep along with the ships at 150 or 210g it should then be able to ramp itself up to its full "few hundred" gees accel once cut lose from the ships.

Mind you, I don't really see it being a good tactic to take your big, slow to replace, ship deep into an enemy system just to slightly improve the chances of your smaller, much quicker to replace, expendable munitions. But the technology should be flexible enough that you could.

Though this is most likely not the first time in Honorverse history where missiles had less accel that ships. There was quite a period when impeller drives couldn't be shrunk enough for even a big anti-ship missiles. And no chemical propellant or even fusion drive is going to provide the thousands of gravities of acceleration an impeller can impart. So if you want missiles they're going to be lower acceleration than the ships almost from the instant the inertial compensator is invented.

Heck, as recently as HotQ the Graysons used chemical propellant for the counter missiles. So their ships almost certainly could out accelerate their own counter missiles.

Hitting a ship with a missile that it can out accelerate is tricky and could only work if the ship builds up sufficient base velocity towards you that it can't stop before reaching you. At that point you only need enough delta-V to overcome how far it can deflect that intercept point in the time remaining in order to generate a hit.

And hitting a missile with a CM is even easier because the missile can't break off without throwing away its shot -- plus by the time it reaches CM range its got a LOT of velocity built up in your direction so even turning perpendicular only deflects its flight path slowly, and it has to reverse any such deflection to get back within warhead range. So sooner or later it has to break back towards the CM.

Still, in the modern Honorverse it is unusual for a weapon to be so slow to accelerate. (The other issue a gtorps low acceleration is that most freighters, and any warship, are quicker than it. As noted above that doesn't make it impossible to intercept with, and even more-so when the target doesn't know its out there to try to evade, but it's so sluggish that many unsuspecting ships will just happen to be on courses where no available gtorp can pull off an intercept)

cthia wrote:Not sure who suggested it. But I certainly recall being a part of the conversation. It seems intuitive that the MAN will figure out a way to exploit the range of their own FTL.

One issue is that FTL comms are easily detectable by the normal warshaski sensors that ships use to see wedges and grav wave turbulence. So it's kind of the opposite of stealth -- you're broadcasting your position to everybody around.

Now the RMN has made significant progress in making their FTL transmitters more directional. But "more directional" seems to still be a pretty large (maybe 90 degree) cone where any ship within it would see the pulses.

Recall the trouble Hexapuma had to take in SoS to get an FTL signal to one of its Ghost Rider drones without it being detected by the enemy who the drone was heading towards. Hexapuma had dogleg the signal by sending it to an entirely different drone that fortunately was way off to the side and so had a transmission angle back to the first drone that didn't include the enemy.

Well the MAlign's current FTL is (like the drones Honor had in HotQ) omnidirectional broadcast. So that trick wouldn't work for them. And even if they do eventually duplicate semi-directional grav broadcasts it's harder to pull that trick off if you need something that can relay fire control for an entire salvo of torpedoes -- plus its harder to find those safe broadcast angles if you're attacking an enemy system full of warships and sensors than when dealing with one ship approaching a neutral system.

So I tend to doubt we're going to see a MAlign Apollo anytime soon. And even once such a thing might exist I'm doubtful it gets used much from stealth platforms or for stealth weapons because it just isn't stealthy.