Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 17 guests

Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by drothgery   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:17 pm

drothgery
Admiral

Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

SWM wrote:I don't think people have missed this point. The problem is that, as has been stated many times, the cost of modifying a Solarian ship to Manticoran or Andermani standards is more than the cost of building a new ship from scratch.
And operating SDs takes a lot of infrastructure and trained personnel, which if you don't already have takes a long time to create -- time that you could spend building or buying something more effective than SLN SDs -- and if you do already have it you don't need SLN SDs.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by SharkHunter   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:26 pm

SharkHunter
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1608
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm
Location: Independence, Missouri

How about if for charity RFC auctions off the naming rights to "ONE SD per winning" forum dweller, along with an as yet unnamed verge system where said Forum dweller can take their pet project for refurb and a story line?

Yeah I know, likely not going to happen. But I'd bid.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:08 pm

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

munroburton wrote:... I'd rather take on two squadrons of captured Nevadas over one of Nikes anyday, especially as....Another reason for that opinion, though it may not be immediately apparent to SLN personnel, is the ability to kill far more trained personnel...
except that you wouldn't be - as we saw in SVW even an entire squadron of BCs in no match for a DN let alone a SD or a squadron of them so you likely wouldn't kill ANY enemy personnel, only your own crews would die.
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by Sigs   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:09 pm

MAD-4A wrote:
Sigs wrote:Those SD's are obsolete, the SD's the Andermani Empire has are at equivalent or slightly lower level than the RMN and it might end up more expensive and time consuming to build up the SLN SD's to modern standards than just build new once.

NO! They are not obsolete! As I tried to explain before, they do not have to be better than the best the RMN has ,they just have to be as good/or better than the best they will face.
Let see if I can give you an example for you to understand;
If you attack me with a stone knife, I don't have to go get a M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle with extended magazine and explosive incendiary tracer ammo to stop you, all I need to stop you is a stone spear, I don’t even need an atlatl.
They are already the best that the SLN had to send. With a few mods and Mk-16s, they will be better than anything the SLN could send. They don't even need Keyhole, they just need to be stationed with ships that have it. They will add their throw weight in for long range (to be passed off to other ships with Keyhole/Apollo) just as the Podnoughts do with most of their pods, and if things do get to a knife fight, well they certainly have an advantage there, even putting themselves in-front to cover the Podnoughts. Adding Keyhole would certainly be possible though. They can also be used in the 2nd string role, scattered though the Confed, relieving Manty (& Andi) constructs from garrison duty to be transferred to the front. A hundred Manty upgraded Nevadas patrolling the Confed would put the ka-bash on ANY thought of sending FF BCs/CAs in as raiders. The SL may be deff-dumb&blind (by choice or stupidity) as to the capabilities of Manty/Andi ships but they KNOW what a Nevada can do & NO FF BC admiral is going into a system (with even a single, let alone) a squadron of Nevadas patrolling there. He’s going to turn quietly around and race back home as fast as his comps can take him! They don't even have to ALL be fully manned & operational 1-3 or 1-4 can be fully worked up with the rest running on skeleton crews & the SL ammo in the tubes as their only shots to give the appearance that the system is defended.
Let me ask you this; if you were a FF BC captain, and you entered a system where you detected 3 ships you absolutely IDed as Nevada class SDs, with Manty transponders, patrolling around. would you attempt to raid that system, even If you had intel reports stating that only 25% of the Manty captured Nevadas were actually operational. would you risk one or more of them BEING an operational one? (hint: if you answered yes then you have no business being in a command chair.)
Same for the Haven back water/rear borders where they stripped the old BBs from that they lost during the war (& they don't have the manpower issues that the Manties have).



Oh but they are Obsolete. We are talking about ships that can and are destroyed by the hundreds without being able to inflict much in the way of casualties in return when facing a numerically equal enemy.

What you are suggesting is to keep a manpower intensive fleet in service that is on par with the 1500 other Solarian SD's. The Alliance needs ships that can be counted on being superior a year or two or even ten years down the road without having to withdraw the ships which suddenly become inferior to the SLN's SD's. The Solarian League cannot match the RMN or its allies in one jump, all they can hope for though is to gradually improve the capabilities which means that the Allies would have to constantly need to improve the Captured ships.


The only things the SD's would be worth are Target practice and training vessels for Talbott and Silesian naval Personnel who are being integrated in the RMN. Getting Haven's ship yards pumping out new SD's with more Automation would help the allies much more than getting the manpower intensive SD's in service when they would be equal to or inferior to anything that the Solarian League or Mesan alignment can/will field.

I don't know if you read my post but what I stated is that all the ships are obsolete but some of them(BC's,CA's,CL's,DD's) Can be used by Manticore in Talbott and Silesia as counter piracy and system defence against the Solarian league. With some minor improvements they should be able to outrun anything they cannot defeat and defeat anything they cannot outrun and it would be essentially the same or better than what Haven did with their Battleships.

Putting obsolete ships of the Wall against equally obsolete SLN ships of the wall just invites needless casualties, keeping light combatants as rear area security makes significantly more sense even if the ships in question are obsolete since the ships in Talbott and Silesia would likely be more obsolete than even the SLN light combatants and therefore it will be an improvement until they can be outfitted or integrated within the RMN.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:22 pm

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

Jonathan_S wrote:And we know that the 3-drive capacitor powered MDMs were big; they didn't fit in existing feed tubes or launchers.
Yes, the new missiles are bigger than the previous missiles of the same size category but the Mk16 is a 2 drive CA/DD missile, I don’t believe that the new DDs fire a significantly larger missile than old capitol missiles, but may-be in any case they have a huge supply of top-of-the-line SL missiles to supply them with until they can get around to refits (which should be part of the deal with the hull trades) & considering the load the Manty/Grason built ships are going to put on their limited supply of Mk16s & 23s, I would want to use those available SL missiles in some capacity. They would certainly be better than anything any Silesian pirate might have as well as anything those FF BCs/CA would be carrying into the Confed for raiding.
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by wastedfly   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:24 pm

wastedfly
Commodore

Posts: 832
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:23 am

drothgery wrote:
SWM wrote:I don't think people have missed this point. The problem is that, as has been stated many times, the cost of modifying a Solarian ship to Manticoran or Andermani standards is more than the cost of building a new ship from scratch.
And operating SDs takes a lot of infrastructure and trained personnel, which if you don't already have takes a long time to create -- time that you could spend building or buying something more effective than SLN SDs -- and if you do already have it you don't need SLN SDs.


Only if you want to keep it around and working for a LONG time. If on the other hand you are worried about surviving the next 5 years till you can boot strap your own defense industry, well then, who cares if it dies. You survived the emperor clothes ambassadorial gladiator fashion show.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:26 pm

thinkstoomuch
Admiral

Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: United States of America

MAD-4A wrote:except that you wouldn't be - as we saw in SVW even an entire squadron of BCs in no match for a DN let alone a SD or a squadron of them so you likely wouldn't kill ANY enemy personnel, only your own crews would die.


Well except that is not really a good comparison. After the pod launched missiles there were still half as many DNs as BCs.

A squadron in that situation (which admittedly is a special circumstance for many reasons) against 1 DN or even one SD would eat its lunch(might have to burb afterward :) ). Or for that matter even a squadron of DNs or SDs versus 8 squadrons of BCs (of course supporting elements on each side do make a difference).

Look back over the engagement even at those numbers it took something approaching an hour to destroy 3 BCs and damage the rest.

Which I always based a lot of my stuff on back when. But those special circumstances were not probably allocated correctly in the way I was viewing it.

Have fun,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:31 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

MAD-4A wrote:
munroburton wrote:... I'd rather take on two squadrons of captured Nevadas over one of Nikes anyday, especially as....Another reason for that opinion, though it may not be immediately apparent to SLN personnel, is the ability to kill far more trained personnel...
except that you wouldn't be - as we saw in SVW even an entire squadron of BCs in no match for a DN let alone a SD or a squadron of them so you likely wouldn't kill ANY enemy personnel, only your own crews would die.

Nah. David has argued that a well trained and lead BC squadron fighting a SD run by Masada equivalent crew and CO could beat the SD. There would be a lot fewer BCs at the glorious victory than there was at the start, but it they could defeat it. But pirates are not usually willing to sign up for missions where most of their ships will get all blowed up.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by MAD-4A   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:32 pm

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

SWM wrote:I don't think people have missed this point. The problem is that, as has been stated many times, the cost of modifying a Solarian ship to Manticoran or Andermani standards is more than the cost of building a new ship from scratch.
Except that the Mantys can't do that right now - a quick fix is to get an ally with the yard space to do it for them in exchange for a healthy share of the take –I think keep 2 for 1 rebuild is a very generous offer. How you use your 2 (refit/resale/scrap) is up to you. once refit (to Haven or Andi standards) they can well fit into the 2nd rank defense formations and fee up home built units (not currently being produced) for transfer to the front lines, without leaving the rear area stripped of defenses.
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Light bulb Captured Solly fleet
Post by munroburton   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:45 pm

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

MAD-4A wrote:
munroburton wrote:... I'd rather take on two squadrons of captured Nevadas over one of Nikes anyday, especially as....Another reason for that opinion, though it may not be immediately apparent to SLN personnel, is the ability to kill far more trained personnel...
except that you wouldn't be - as we saw in SVW even an entire squadron of BCs in no match for a DN let alone a SD or a squadron of them so you likely wouldn't kill ANY enemy personnel, only your own crews would die.


Some quick maths coming up...

16 Nevada BCs(with no off-bore capability) can put a maximum of 448 missiles per salvo, with a cycle time of about 30 seconds. If loaded with SLN BC grade missiles, maximum range of 8 million km. If loaded with DD/CL grade Cataphract missiles, maximum powered range of 15.5 million km.

8 Nike BCs can throw 400 missiles per salvo, with a cycle time of about 15 seconds. Those are MK16 DDMs, with the potential destructive output of previously SD-range missile and a maximum powered range of over 30 million kilometres.

The 16 Nevadas take almost 50,000 crew to man effectively. The 8 Nikes requires a shade less than 10,000.

If you were actually referring to SLN Scientist-class SDs, they are even worse weapon platforms than their BCs: two of them take 12,000 crew, can only throw slightly more powerful missile payloads, at 64 per salvo.

If anything, I'd rather take on four or perhaps even five Nevada squadrons than a single one of Nikes, once the acceleration, electronics and recon advantages are factored in.

And yes, any BCs caught within energy range of a waller is toast. It's the catching that's tough to pull off. Bellerephon blowing apart those four BCs was a freak incident - a canny flag officer(Admiral Sarnow) can use BCs to duel with DNs at extreme missile ranges without being totally wiped out.

MAD-4A wrote:
SWM wrote:I don't think people have missed this point. The problem is that, as has been stated many times, the cost of modifying a Solarian ship to Manticoran or Andermani standards is more than the cost of building a new ship from scratch.
Except that the Mantys can't do that right now - a quick fix is to get an ally with the yard space to do it for them in exchange for a healthy share of the take –I think keep 2 for 1 rebuild is a very generous offer. How you use your 2 (refit/resale/scrap) is up to you. once refit (to Haven or Andi standards) they can well fit into the 2nd rank defense formations and fee up home built units (not currently being produced) for transfer to the front lines, without leaving the rear area stripped of defenses.


The Manties haven't actually captured that many Solarian cruisers and destroyers. 11th Fleet and Crandall's Task Force were very light on screening elements and every ship of Byng's task group was lobotomized. There are only ~55 BCs, ~60 CA/CLs and even fewer DDs available.
Top

Return to Honorverse