A question about the destruction of Admiral Filareta

Bill Woods wrote:

Weird Harold wrote: More likely is C) An entire Admiral's Staff realized that she was irrational and her refusal to surrender was going to get them killed for no gain. Manticore didn't press the issue of who pulled the trigger because it was a joint decision to dispose of a threat to their survival.

It wouldn't have taken any sort of MAlign influence to get Adm Crandall a bullet to the head; Adm Crandall was more than capable of earning that end all by herself. There are several POVs from a staff member highlighting Adm Crandall's disconnect with reality.

Adm. Crandall gets a lot of stick for her idiocy, but in my opinion it's unjustified. From the text, she's arrogant, ignorant of Manty capabilities, and the arrogance leads her to underestimate the depth of her ignorance. And she has "the disposition of a grizzly bear with hemorrhoids trying to pass pinecones." Nevertheless, when members of her staff warn her of possible threats, she takes their counsel under consideration. When presented with evidence for the Manties' FTLcom, ultra-long-range missiles, etc. she accepts them as real.

Crandall's ill-served by her chief of staff, who's the real idiot. At one point, he himself suggests, "Maybe they think they can pull off some sort of 'ambush!'" Then -- moments later -- he ridicules the idea that what the Manties are "really trying to do is to convince us they're even weaker than they actually are". In other words, to lure the Sollies into some sort of ambush!

When last seen, Crandall is fully aware of her fleet's dire situation:

"I doubt even Manties would have fired missiles they can't control." Despite her own shock, despite her truculence and undeniable arrogance, Sandra Crandall's eyes were dark with a refusal to hide behind simple denial. "You may be right about the accuracy penalty, but if they can throw enough salvos this size, even crappy accuracy's going to rip our ass off."
Bautista's eyes went even wider at her harsh-voiced admission. He opened his mouth once more, as if to say something, but no words came, and he closed it again.
Crandall never even noticed.

So I don't see the "refusal to surrender was going to get them killed for no gain." I also don't see the point of fragging her on a broken ship which was unable to communicate anyway. O'Cleary took over, and surrendered less than two minutes after the first salvo struck, because neither Crandall's nor her 2nd in command's ships were operational.

Which leads to the point that you don't want her talking about who set her up - especially that Mesa (Manpower) had ordered her to hold her exercise in the Madras sector. So ensuring that she was silenced makes sense from the MAlign point of view.

fallsfromtrees wrote:Which leads to the point that you don't want her talking about who set her up - especially that Mesa (Manpower) had ordered her to hold her exercise in the Madras sector. So ensuring that she was silenced makes sense from the MAlign point of view.

Which, being that nobody from Manticore seems to care about this, means that you don't really have a case suggesting the need to build a horribly complex chain of events to cover up your killing Filareta.

"Nobody saw nuthin! And you can't prove I did it!"
"Well, ok, then you can leave."

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Which leads to the point that you don't want her talking about who set her up - especially that Mesa (Manpower) had ordered her to hold her exercise in the Madras sector. So ensuring that she was silenced makes sense from the MAlign point of view.

Which, being that nobody from Manticore seems to care about this, means that you don't really have a case suggesting the need to build a horribly complex chain of events to cover up your killing Filareta.

"Nobody saw nuthin! And you can't prove I did it!"
"Well, ok, then you can leave."

We were actually discussing Crandall. We already know that Filareta was nanotech assassinated. The discussion was about why they might have arranged for the nantech suicide of Crandall, and at the time, there was no idea that Mesa was behind the troubles with the SL, and they wanted to keep it that way, which means keeping Crandall from discussing why Mesa arranged for her to conduct her exercise (Winter Forage) in the Madras sector boondocks.

There is textev that the MAlign didn't want either Crandal or Filereta to survive once they served their purpose. So however the details played out on Crandal's flag bridge, it is reasonable to assume that the MAlign was behind the assasination/suicide.

What does seen odd is that none of her staff will say what happened. I wonder if it is time for some 'cat accompanied questioning.

Don

n7axw wrote:What does seen odd is that none of her staff will say what happened.

It is the fact her staff survived, (as opposed to Filareta's staff who died along with him,) is one thing that argues against MAlign activity. The MAlign is big on eliminating possible witnesses and doesn't worry overmuch about innocent bystanders.

I do not believe that Admiral Crandal was assassinated by a nano-assassin. When the nano-assassin went after Admiral Harrington, he hosed the whole room. A single shoot in the head and than placing the gun in the victims hand sounds to complicated for such an assassin. A regular assassin also seams unlikely, because such an assassin would have to know that Admiral Crandals task force was sailing to their doom, survive the engagement and then end up as a POW that knows to much. Seams to be a bit risky for the MA or anyone motivated by money.

Suicide is a possibility but questionable, because of the unusual method. Nano induced suicide is also questionable, because the trigger conditions would have been very complicated. Also such a suicide, would require a sidearm, that is guaranteed to be in a certain position relative to Admiral Crandal (see Fleet Admiral Ramjapets suicide). Therefore the suicide is in danger of failing, if for example the cabinet, in which the sidearm is placed falls over during the battle or any number of other things, which could change the position of the sidearm.

I tend to think it was a fraging. Especially since nobody saw anything. They all have self induced amnesia and no Manty is motivated to expend the effort to convince them otherwise. Or the frager had an opportunity in which he was alone with Admiral Crandal and took it in the spur of the moment.

Torlek wrote:I do not believe that Admiral Crandal was assassinated by a nano-assassin. When the nano-assassin went after Admiral Harrington, he hosed the whole room. A single shoot in the head and than placing the gun in the victims hand sounds to complicated for such an assassin. A regular assassin also seams unlikely, because such an assassin would have to know that Admiral Crandals task force was sailing to their doom, survive the engagement and then end up as a POW that knows to much. Seams to be a bit risky for the MA or anyone motivated by money.

Suicide is a possibility but questionable, because of the unusual method. Nano induced suicide is also questionable, because the trigger conditions would have been very complicated. Also such a suicide, would require a sidearm, that is guaranteed to be in a certain position relative to Admiral Crandal (see Fleet Admiral Ramjapets suicide). Therefore the suicide is in danger of failing, if for example the cabinet, in which the sidearm is placed falls over during the battle or any number of other things, which could change the position of the sidearm.

I tend to think it was a fraging. Especially since nobody saw anything. They all have self induced amnesia and no Manty is motivated to expend the effort to convince them otherwise. Or the frager had an opportunity in which he was alone with Admiral Crandal and took it in the spur of the moment.

Hi Torlek,

Your guess is probably as good as mine. I will only remind you that anyone who witnessed Rajampet's assasination would have seen a suicide. So also that guy on Haven who flew into the cliff. There isn't just one pattern. Sometimes the patsy can be the victim.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Torlek wrote:I do not believe that Admiral Crandal was assassinated by a nano-assassin. When the nano-assassin went after Admiral Harrington, he hosed the whole room. A single shoot in the head and than placing the gun in the victims hand sounds to complicated for such an assassin. A regular assassin also seams unlikely, because such an assassin would have to know that Admiral Crandals task force was sailing to their doom, survive the engagement and then end up as a POW that knows to much. Seams to be a bit risky for the MA or anyone motivated by money.

Suicide is a possibility but questionable, because of the unusual method. Nano induced suicide is also questionable, because the trigger conditions would have been very complicated. Also such a suicide, would require a sidearm, that is guaranteed to be in a certain position relative to Admiral Crandal (see Fleet Admiral Ramjapets suicide). Therefore the suicide is in danger of failing, if for example the cabinet, in which the sidearm is placed falls over during the battle or any number of other things, which could change the position of the sidearm.

I tend to think it was a fraging. Especially since nobody saw anything. They all have self induced amnesia and no Manty is motivated to expend the effort to convince them otherwise. Or the frager had an opportunity in which he was alone with Admiral Crandal and took it in the spur of the moment.

Hi Torlek,

Your guess is probably as good as mine. I will only remind you that anyone who witnessed Rajampet's assasination would have seen a suicide. So also that guy on Haven who flew into the cliff. There isn't just one pattern. Sometimes the patsy can be the victim.

Don

The only problem is Crandall was shot in the back of the Head - Which I'm assuming was her head, not a ship's head. That is kinda hard to do on one's own without making it look like you did it yourself.

Hi Torlek,

Difficult, yes. But certainly not impossible. All you really have to do is look away from the hand that is holding the gun and the gymnastics becomes very doable.

Don

Hi Don,

While it seems surprising not one of her staff saw anything, if they were all busy doing their jobs or trying, after the attack, they wouldn't be looking at the admiral in the first place.

It was her gun, but a nano-assassin is quite possible, though I've wondered about her chief of staff Pepe, but one reason the MAlign probably wanted her in command [with him as CoS] was that she/he had been prepared quite some time ago [ie infected], the trigger probably being the attack, possibly with some staffer's expected report pushing it.

The fact that RFC dwelt on those details so much indicates they're going to be important when whoever smokes out all the clues, for either a detective with a treecat companion [another internal series?] or Anton and possibly Victor, now that their spy days are effectively over, NTM with comments about all the data the GA is missing, and not following up.

L

n7axw wrote:

Torlek wrote:I do not believe that Admiral Crandal was assassinated by a nano-assassin. When the nano-assassin went after Admiral Harrington, he hosed the whole room. A single shoot in the head and than placing the gun in the victims hand sounds to complicated for such an assassin. A regular assassin also seams unlikely, because such an assassin would have to know that Admiral Crandals task force was sailing to their doom, survive the engagement and then end up as a POW that knows to much. Seams to be a bit risky for the MA or anyone motivated by money.

Suicide is a possibility but questionable, because of the unusual method. Nano induced suicide is also questionable, because the trigger conditions would have been very complicated. Also such a suicide, would require a sidearm, that is guaranteed to be in a certain position relative to Admiral Crandal (see Fleet Admiral Ramjapets suicide). Therefore the suicide is in danger of failing, if for example the cabinet, in which the sidearm is placed falls over during the battle or any number of other things, which could change the position of the sidearm.

I tend to think it was a fraging. Especially since nobody saw anything. They all have self induced amnesia and no Manty is motivated to expend the effort to convince them otherwise. Or the frager had an opportunity in which he was alone with Admiral Crandal and took it in the spur of the moment.

Hi Torlek,

Your guess is probably as good as mine. I will only remind you that anyone who witnessed Rajampet's assasination would have seen a suicide. So also that guy on Haven who flew into the cliff. There isn't just one pattern. Sometimes the patsy can be the victim.

Don