Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

thinkstoomuch wrote:Well except that is not really a good comparison. After the pod launched missiles there were still half as many DNs as BCs.

A squadron in that situation (which admittedly is a special circumstance for many reasons) against 1 DN or even one SD would eat its lunch(might have to burb afterward ). Or for that matter even a squadron of DNs or SDs versus 8 squadrons of BCs (of course supporting elements on each side do make a difference).

Look back over the engagement even at those numbers it took something approaching an hour to destroy 3 BCs and damage the rest.

Where are you getting this? 1 DN, HMS Bellerophon, destroyed 4 Sultan class BCs with no damage.

wastedfly wrote:Only if you want to keep it around and working for a LONG time. If on the other hand you are worried about surviving the next 5 years till you can boot strap your own defense industry, well then, who cares if it dies. You survived the emperor clothes ambassadorial gladiator fashion show.

Exactly - 5-10 yrs from now, when ship productions back up or the wars over, scrap-em - but for now - they have missiles find a way to use them.

MAD-4A wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:Well except that is not really a good comparison. After the pod launched missiles there were still half as many DNs as BCs.

A squadron in that situation (which admittedly is a special circumstance for many reasons) against 1 DN or even one SD would eat its lunch(might have to burb afterward ). Or for that matter even a squadron of DNs or SDs versus 8 squadrons of BCs (of course supporting elements on each side do make a difference).

Look back over the engagement even at those numbers it took something approaching an hour to destroy 3 BCs and damage the rest.

Where are you getting this? 1 DN, HMS Bellerophon, destroyed 4 Sultan class BCs with no damage.

In SVW, there are two instances of BCs taking on DNs. The first was those 4 BCs, which dropped out of hyperspace right into graser range of a single DN(HMS Bellerophon).

The second was the battle of Hancock Station, where Sarnow's task group of 1 BC squadron, 1 CA squadron and a few others was able to duel a DN squadron, a BC squadron and others, destroying two DNs and four BCs in exchange for only three BCs. Granted, Sarnow's forces did use a number of surprises and tricks, but they were still able to do it.

The one major problem in using SLN ships is the manpower needed to man them.

Crewing
Nevada class ~3000

Gladiator class ~1500

Reliant class 2200

Nike class 750

Star Knight class 1000

Sag-C 350

In other words you could crew 4 Nike class ships for every Nevada class ship or roughly 3 Reliant class for every 2 Nevada class.

IHO the best thing the RMN could do with those ships is gift them to independent or newly independent verge planets like Meyers or Macintosh for anti-piracy and SAR duties.

munroburton wrote:...The 16 Nevadas take almost 50,000 crew to man effectively. The 8 Nikes requires a shade less than 10,000...If you were actually referring to SLN Scientist-class SDs, they are even worse weapon platforms than their BCs: two of them take 12,000 crew, can only throw slightly more powerful missile payloads, at 64 per salvo...

oops. yes, it's been a while, I meant Scientist-class SD, and no, not 12,000 crew - as the point was, you trade hulls to allies (or perhaps pay/trade benefits/tariff reduction) in exchange for them using their shipyards to upgrade your captured hulls to the automated/reduced manpower standards.

munroburton wrote:...snip...

And yes, any BCs caught within energy range of a waller is toast. It's the catching that's tough to pull off. Bellerephon blowing apart those four BCs was a freak incident - a canny flag officer(Admiral Sarnow) can use BCs to duel with DNs at extreme missile ranges without being totally wiped out.

...snip...

I wasn't even thinking about the Bellerephon's engagement.

I always considered that on par with Peabody's finding a needle by sitting on a haystack.

I automatically went to an actual planned battle where some body was invading a star system.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I'll leave my original response to demonstrate my stupidity.

Enjoy,
T2M

[EDIT] Second point of stupidity always read to the end of a topic before responding. And I was just taking it from the point after the pods and mines had been used.

munroburton wrote:In SVW, there are two instances of BCs taking on DNs. The first was those 4 BCs, which dropped out of hyperspace right into graser range of a single DN(HMS Bellerophon).

The second was the battle of Hancock Station, where Sarnow's task group of 1 BC squadron, 1 CA squadron and a few others was able to duel a DN squadron, a BC squadron and others, destroying two DNs and four BCs in exchange for only three BCs. Granted, Sarnow's forces did use a number of surprises and tricks, but they were still able to do it.

Ah - I see, yes, and they used massive tech advantage at the time as-well. & they didn't slug it out they ran and launched missiles backwards giving them an even greater range advantage against the Haven bow chase weapons. no FFBC raiders are going to get that sort of situation while trying to raid into a defended system.

MAD-4A wrote:Ah - I see, yes, and they used massive tech advantage at the time as-well. & they didn't slug it out they ran and launched missiles backwards giving them an even greater range advantage against the Haven bow chase weapons. no FFBC raiders are going to get that sort of situation while trying to raid into a defended system.

I would really disagree. How did that PRN force get ambushed in the first place? How much scouting are the FF forces going to do on each system? Remembering that they have been transiting for months.

Also remember as of WoH the RMN was deploying small system monitoring arrays from CAs like they were candy. If you are going to give the system ships wouldn't it be prudent to give them the ability to monitor their hyper limit. Probably that system is something that they can use in their bootstrap efforts. And would definitely put a big squeeze on the whole pirate laying in wait routine.

I wouldn't even give them FTL capability as that is still on the official secrets list for the hardware not the known capability. And it really isn't needed.

There really is a lot that goes into this that I am glossing over. But ...

Have fun,
T2M

MAD-4A wrote:

munroburton wrote:In SVW, there are two instances of BCs taking on DNs. The first was those 4 BCs, which dropped out of hyperspace right into graser range of a single DN(HMS Bellerophon).

The second was the battle of Hancock Station, where Sarnow's task group of 1 BC squadron, 1 CA squadron and a few others was able to duel a DN squadron, a BC squadron and others, destroying two DNs and four BCs in exchange for only three BCs. Granted, Sarnow's forces did use a number of surprises and tricks, but they were still able to do it.

Ah - I see, yes, and they used massive tech advantage at the time as-well. & they didn't slug it out they ran and launched missiles backwards giving them an even greater range advantage against the Haven bow chase weapons. no FFBC raiders are going to get that sort of situation while trying to raid into a defended system.

I can think of at least one way they could pull it off, particularly if their target system is defended by ex-SLN crap or RMN's pre-DDM designs. That's practically even ground!

The SLN's commerce raiding strategy is probably going to work no better than the Peep strategy of using BBs to slow White Haven down during his campaign to take Trevor's Star. They'll get their hits in, but be forced to pay very dearly for them.

In IEH, Theisman reflects on how he bought Trevor's Star three or four months by fighting dreadnaughts with BBs and BCs with two-to-one numerical superiority. He lost 10 BBs and 11 BCs in exchange for destroying 1 DN and sending 6 more DNs to the yards with battle damage.

By delaying the conquest of Trevor's Star by up to three or four months, he put that much more wear and tear on the RMN's ships. Caparelli was forced to recall almost a third of his wallers in for simple maintenance after Trevor's Star and we know what McQueen did with that breathing space.

If the SLN is willing to accept heavy casaulties and keeps the RMN cruisers working hard, the RMN may just find itself breaking down about six months before the new yards can launch new ships. Unfortunately for the SLN, at that time, scores of new RHN ships should be finishing their builder's trials...

MAD-4A wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And we know that the 3-drive capacitor powered MDMs were big; they didn't fit in existing feed tubes or launchers.

Yes, the new missiles are bigger than the previous missiles of the same size category but the Mk16 is a 2 drive CA/DD missile, I don’t believe that the new DDs fire a significantly larger missile than old capitol missiles, but may-be in any case they have a huge supply of top-of-the-line SL missiles to supply them with until they can get around to refits (which should be part of the deal with the hull trades) & considering the load the Manty/Grason built ships are going to put on their limited supply of Mk16s & 23s, I would want to use those available SL missiles in some capacity. They would certainly be better than anything any Silesian pirate might have as well as anything those FF BCs/CA would be carrying into the Confed for raiding.

Yeah, it's the fact that the Mk 16's are cruiser/destroyer size missiles - but now with capital missile punch with the new laserheads - that keeps this from being a total non-starter. You get a lot of room in the launcher saved that way - maybe. But you have to build in there the systems to feed the capacitors and not go boom too easily. Maybe you've got the volume, maybe you don't, but shape and connections are still issues.

And then you come across the crew issues, which, alas, I do think will deep-six the idea.

I suppose it's more me being fascinated with the possibilities of reverting to smaller missiles that DDM's and the -G laserheads invite than being too optimistic about marrying that to old SLN prizes and getting practical warships out of it.