Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

MAD-4A wrote:Where are you getting this? 1 DN, HMS Bellerophon, destroyed 4 Sultan class BCs with no damage.

Everything about that engagement except that peeps were expecting combat and the Manties were not was set up to tilt the scales heavily in favor of the DN. Most notably that they dropped out of hyper in energy range of a DN. All the tech trends over the next decade and a half prior to Apollo (which only the GA has) made sub-wallers more able to fight SDs effectively.

MAD-4A wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:Well except that is not really a good comparison. After the pod launched missiles there were still half as many DNs as BCs.

A squadron in that situation (which admittedly is a special circumstance for many reasons) against 1 DN or even one SD would eat its lunch(might have to burb afterward ). Or for that matter even a squadron of DNs or SDs versus 8 squadrons of BCs (of course supporting elements on each side do make a difference).

Look back over the engagement even at those numbers it took something approaching an hour to destroy 3 BCs and damage the rest.

Where are you getting this? 1 DN, HMS Bellerophon, destroyed 4 Sultan class BCs with no damage.

Uh battle of Hancock

MAD-4A wrote:Where are you getting this? 1 DN, HMS Bellerophon, destroyed 4 Sultan class BCs with no damage.

Of course, the minor detail that the Sultans dropped out of Hyper in energy range of Bellerophon had nothing to do with that outcome.

The SLN still uses SDs optimized for energy-range combat. Given a choice between front-line SLN missiles and a box of rocks, I'd be hard pressed to choose the more dangerous.

MAD-4A wrote:

SWM wrote:I don't think people have missed this point. The problem is that, as has been stated many times, the cost of modifying a Solarian ship to Manticoran or Andermani standards is more than the cost of building a new ship from scratch.

Except that the Mantys can't do that right now - a quick fix is to get an ally with the yard space to do it for them in exchange for a healthy share of the take –I think keep 2 for 1 rebuild is a very generous offer. How you use your 2 (refit/resale/scrap) is up to you. once refit (to Haven or Andi standards) they can well fit into the 2nd rank defense formations and fee up home built units (not currently being produced) for transfer to the front lines, without leaving the rear area stripped of defenses.

I don't think you really read my post. I was saying that it would be cheaper for the Andermani to build new ships than to refit the Solarian ships. There is no point in refitting the Solarian ships to Manticoran or Andermani standards. Just build new ones instead.

SWM wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:Except that the Mantys can't do that right now - a quick fix is to get an ally with the yard space to do it for them in exchange for a healthy share of the take –I think keep 2 for 1 rebuild is a very generous offer. How you use your 2 (refit/resale/scrap) is up to you. once refit (to Haven or Andi standards) they can well fit into the 2nd rank defense formations and fee up home built units (not currently being produced) for transfer to the front lines, without leaving the rear area stripped of defenses.

I don't think you really read my post. I was saying that it would be cheaper for the Andermani to build new ships than to refit the Solarian ships. There is no point in refitting the Solarian ships to Manticoran or Andermani standards. Just build new ones instead.

A question you forgot to ask: Why would the Andies WANT two SLN SDs? Maybe to examine to find the best way to optimize their weapons, but I am sure that the Manties would be willing to let them examine the ships in Manticore for that. It would be better for anybody in the GA to use Andermani or, even better, Havenite ships than to use SLN ships. Heaven and the Andies will just keep using their own ships no matter what, and if the RMN or GSN feel like they need more wallers, (and they shouldn't) they would be better off buying them from Haven, or barring that, reactivating their own reserve. For literally everybody in the Grand Alliance, the SLN SDs are worth about as much as the same mass of paperweights. Refitting them is just throwing good money after bad.

What we really should be doing is trying to figure out how to increase the number of small boys available to the RMN. Considering what a handful of cruisers did to the Winter Forage fleet, they will not need a fraction of the wallers that are currently in commission amongst those four navies. What they need are missiles, pods, convoy escorts, system defense installations, and general work horse ships. BC and down. I really think that Manticore is making a mistake in having Haven make SD hulls for them, rather than Nike hulls.

crewdude48 wrote:What we really should be doing is trying to figure out how to increase the number of small boys available to the RMN. Considering what a handful of cruisers did to the Winter Forage fleet, they will not need a fraction of the wallers that are currently in commission amongst those four navies. What they need are missiles, pods, convoy escorts, system defense installations, and general work horse ships. BC and down. I really think that Manticore is making a mistake in having Haven make SD hulls for them, rather than Nike hulls.

Given what they do, the crew requirements, and what they come across, Rolands would be better than Nikes, just because they can hack the same sorts of jobs (shooting fish in barrels, really), and you get many more for the same time, cost, and crew. Nikes have defenses which are excessive versus anything the SLN will be firing (expect perhaps concentrations of wallers), except at energy range which can largely be avoided, and full FTL fire control, which is purely excessive.

Saganami C's, or something very like them with the near-future Havenite tech base, would be another fine alternative.

JeffEngel wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:Yes, the new missiles are bigger than the previous missiles of the same size category but the Mk16 is a 2 drive CA/DD missile, I don’t believe that the new DDs fire a significantly larger missile than old capitol missiles, but may-be in any case they have a huge supply of top-of-the-line SL missiles to supply them with until they can get around to refits (which should be part of the deal with the hull trades) & considering the load the Manty/Grason built ships are going to put on their limited supply of Mk16s & 23s, I would want to use those available SL missiles in some capacity. They would certainly be better than anything any Silesian pirate might have as well as anything those FF BCs/CA would be carrying into the Confed for raiding.

Yeah, it's the fact that the Mk 16's are cruiser/destroyer size missiles - but now with capital missile punch with the new laserheads - that keeps this from being a total non-starter. You get a lot of room in the launcher saved that way - maybe. But you have to build in there the systems to feed the capacitors and not go boom too easily. Maybe you've got the volume, maybe you don't, but shape and connections are still issues.

But Mk16s don't use capacitors. Capacitors with enough power for two drives are bigger than a microfusion plant and fuel for over 360 seconds of operation.

So you have to build an entirely new system in the launcher to ignite the microfusion reactor; then you need entirely new armoring around the launcher so that the *big boom* in that reactor won't shred your ship or chain reaction across the rest of the launch tubes if something goes wrong.
Even if the dimensions work refitting for microfusion powered missiles is very non-trivial.

(That's why I went off on a tangent about potential capacitor powered DDM/MDMs. But rebuilding / refitting SLN ships is still a non-starter for several reasons; even if you had a good missile for them to use)

saber964 wrote:The one major problem in using SLN ships is the manpower needed to man them.

Crewing
Nevada class ~3000

Gladiator class ~1500

Reliant class 2200

Nike class 750

Star Knight class 1000

Sag-C 350

In other words you could crew 4 Nike class ships for every Nevada class ship or roughly 3 Reliant class for every 2 Nevada class.

IHO the best thing the RMN could do with those ships is gift them to independent or newly independent verge planets like Meyers or Macintosh for anti-piracy and SAR duties.

----------------

Saber -- Welcome to the club (I have been beaten with that same club multiple times in multiple threads)

The heavy metal -- SD's -- are best as raw materials and scavenged equipment parts (O2 purifiers, PDLC's, lasers / grasers etc); the hulls can be semi-purified ore for re-processing (the scrap-metal business has a boon-time in Talbot and Manticore)

The BC's -- both Nevada's and Indefatigable's are likely scrap metal due to large manning requirements, but might serve as flagships if enough CA's and DD's are available for operational work.

The CA's, especially the Gladiator class (see Service of the Sword) are effective against most non-DDM ships and would work well as a rear defense for Silecia or Talbot, or as gift ships to Meyers and other "new-independent" sectors without compromising RMN / GA technical security.

The CL's / DD's (of all classes), although obsolete / obsolescent by GA standards, are adequate for anti-piracy duties and patrol surveillance (traditional CL / DD role) for the "new-independent" sectors.

see multiple other threads for further discussion on this topic (with about the same non-resolution).

-- Stewart

I have a better idea. Let's just drive them out someplace and drop them into the middle of a sun. Take the crews off first, though.

Don

n7axw wrote:I have a better idea. Let's just drive them out someplace and drop them into the middle of a sun. Take the crews off first, though.

Don

Finally, a solution that would keep the interstellar pack rats quiet after it was implemented