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GOD EXISTS

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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by TN4994   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:43 am

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
TN4994 wrote:Exodus 22:18 KJV
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Leviticus chapters 19 and 20.
Also see Deuteronomy 18:9 to 18:14 - Galatians 5:18 to 5:23 - 1 Samuel 15:23.

The problem is that is is now fairly certain the the word which was translated as witch in the KJV actually referred to a woman who poisoned her husband.

One of the many problems with translations, particularly translations from Hebrew, since the ancient Hebrew texts did NOT have the diacritical marks to indicate vowels, so a number of similar words looked the same, but were pronounced differently due to the vowel shift.

Then it follows a wizard poisons his wife.
One thought is that the term witch as derived the Greek text is what we would call a herbilistic healer and deviner who didn't observe Hebrew tradional practices. Maybe they practiced Egyptian medicine? The term witch is both male and female in the ancient text. Anglos tend to only apply it as femalr. The Amirac text also translates it similarly as shaman. The so called poisoner or assassin is but a conjecture.
Jezabel the seducer was referred to as a witch. Love potions?
Sorry lost internet connection.
Then the Judean culture in Assyria refered to the High Priests of Bahl and the High Priestesses of Moloch and several other religions who practiced deviant sex as witches.
But the KJV of the law of Moses says "Kill the Witch." Perhaps they had druids then.
Last edited by TN4994 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by TN4994   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:47 am

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Annachie wrote:Sorry, but this is just too weird.

Back in the 1890's, the Catholic Church declared that Americanism is a heretical idea. Specifically the endorsement of the separation of church and state.

What do you expect from an organization that banned coffee until an enlightened pope tried it and limed it.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Daryl   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:15 am

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For a thousand years or more the great bulk of European people could not read their own language let alone Latin. They had to depend on what the clergy told them was right. Somewhat like the current situation in much of the Middle East where the imans interpret the koran for the illiterate masses.
Anyway as far as the Holy Inquisition was concerned you did what you were told or you were obviously "one of them".

PeterZ wrote:
Daryl wrote:It does seem to be a bit unfair. Your priest tells you to go and kill that witch, your are unsure so check with the bishop who confirms it is the right thing to do, then when being judged god says they were wrong so you are doomed.


Your guy should have read the Bible, checked the passages the priest and bishop used to conclude what they did and prayed about the question. Claiming he is just following orders means your guy abrogated his responsibility to the God he says he believes in. Again, the personal relationship to God is paramount, the church is secondary.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:28 am

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The jihadis appear to be the modern inquisition. While compulsion might limit moral culpability, it does not absolve one of doing one's best of recognizing and avoiding evil actions. God is the best judge of one's success.

Daryl wrote:For a thousand years or more the great bulk of European people could not read their own language let alone Latin. They had to depend on what the clergy told them was right. Somewhat like the current situation in much of the Middle East where the imans interpret the koran for the illiterate masses.
Anyway as far as the Holy Inquisition was concerned you did what you were told or you were obviously "one of them".

PeterZ wrote:
Your guy should have read the Bible, checked the passages the priest and bishop used to conclude what they did and prayed about the question. Claiming he is just following orders means your guy abrogated his responsibility to the God he says he believes in. Again, the personal relationship to God is paramount, the church is secondary.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Annachie   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:42 am

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England didn't go to mass in English until what, the 1500's or so.

I may have gotten my heresy wrong. Getting old I guess. There was one sect that was declared heretical because they believed that th way to god was found by the individual, not by slavishly following priests. This is basically what PeterZ was saying.

It's also a theme in Safehold.

Daryl wrote:For a thousand years or more the great bulk of European people could not read their own language let alone Latin. They had to depend on what the clergy told them was right. Somewhat like the current situation in much of the Middle East where the imans interpret the koran for the illiterate masses.
Anyway as far as the Holy Inquisition was concerned you did what you were told or you were obviously "one of them".

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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:35 am

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Annachie wrote:England didn't go to mass in English until what, the 1500's or so.

I may have gotten my heresy wrong. Getting old I guess. There was one sect that was declared heretical because they believed that th way to god was found by the individual, not by slavishly following priests. This is basically what PeterZ was saying.

It's also a theme in Safehold.

Daryl wrote:For a thousand years or more the great bulk of European people could not read their own language let alone Latin. They had to depend on what the clergy told them was right. Somewhat like the current situation in much of the Middle East where the imans interpret the koran for the illiterate masses.
Anyway as far as the Holy Inquisition was concerned you did what you were told or you were obviously "one of them".



I believe your were correct in referencing Gnosticism. The issue was not a personal relationship with God as much as it was a reliance on information/knowledge beyond God's Word to achieve that relationship. The end result was that if there was no objective measure of what God wanted, then all there is left is navel gazing to achieve insight into God's will for us.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Hutch   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:40 am

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Annachie wrote:England didn't go to mass in English until what, the 1500's or so.
*Snip*


Heck, Annachie, I can still remember attending Catolic Mass as a child in the 1950's when it was still in Latin. I had memorized the Agnus Dei and was still working on the Pater Noster when John XXIII took all the mystery out of it and let Masses be conducted in English.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:07 pm

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Michael Everett wrote:
cthia wrote:Everybody wants to move religion. Or discussions about religion. The Pilgrims fled England and religious persecution in search of lands in which they could worship as they please.

America's success leads it to forget its roots. A land of religious freedom. As a result, we have taken (moved) religion out of the public schools.

Now our public schools have become a warzone!


Actually, the Pilgrims fled the UK because they were too uptight and stick-in-the-@$$ to fit in with the majority, so they headed to the New World to set up a commune which effectively failed.
Had the Pilgrims not been aided by the natives and follow-on shiploads of immigrants, America would still be in a state of low-level war between the various tribes.
Or invaded by other countries seeking to grab the resources.



AAAARRRGGHH!!! this is so not related to the Honorverse.

As a neo-bob, I will take issue with two stereotypes here. First, the confusion of the Pilgrims with the Puritans, and second with the idea that the natives were incapable of organizing into capable political units.

Religion in the new world was never free; somebody had to pay for the royal charter in the first place. Plimouth Plantation almost failed, because it landed on the wrong rock. Most of them were living in Holland, and the Spanish were attempting to invade --it wasn't a time of long-term peace in the region. The Puritans came to America, because they were Low Church, and because the Glorious Revolution ended with the restoration of the monarchy, and a general loss of political/religious/economic power on behalf of the original supporters of the Commonwealth. So they set up a new Commonwealth under the authoritarianism of the Congregational Church. Drive around New England, the white churches are everywhere.

As far as the Natives not being organized, the great power in Colonial America before the Stamp Act was the Iroquois; they fought for the English against the French, gaining the UK control of Canada; but they split during the Revolution, with some tribes supporting the colonies, and others --mostly it was the Mohawks--supporting the UK. But they were widely respected for their politics, and it was their losses in the war--and the inability to pit the new US against the UK for influence/assistance--that doomed them.

There were several other confederations in those early days; Cherokee, and Creek in the south. But the degree to which people organize politically depends on what you are organizing against, and what you are organizing for. Most empires as far as I can tell spent all their time fighting internal and external enemies. Native americans weren't dealing with those threat levels, so they didn't create political structures to deal with them.

Sigh. there are so few who try to understand barbarians. Which, originally, was anyone who didn't speak Greek.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Annachie   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:10 pm

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Hutch wrote:
Annachie wrote:England didn't go to mass in English until what, the 1500's or so.
*Snip*


Heck, Annachie, I can still remember attending Catolic Mass as a child in the 1950's when it was still in Latin. I had memorized the Agnus Dei and was still working on the Pater Noster when John XXIII took all the mystery out of it and let Masses be conducted in English.

Think there's still one latin mass said down here in Melbourne.
Always meant to go, for the experience if nothing else. (Google says it's still running)
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:29 pm

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Annachie wrote:England didn't go to mass in English until what, the 1500's or so.
*Snip*

For that matter, in 1536 William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English by the Catholic Church.
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