The European Union - Discussion.

If the EU is to endure, the EU will have to impose uniform standards for retirement age and benefits that will preclude the Greeks from retiring when they are fifty.

namelessfly wrote:If the EU is to endure, the EU will have to impose uniform standards for retirement age and benefits that will preclude the Greeks from retiring when they are fifty.

IIRC, Merkel has gone on record asking what idiot let the Greeks in, or words to that effect.

As for the EU imposing anything, someone will always try and veto. Best not to think of Europe as a single entity - it tries to be, but isn't.

Mike.

Tenshinai wrote:Did you know the origin of the EU?

Another French attempt to try and dominate the continent and limit Germany? Kinda backfired, has it not?

Well, reality is that USA is doing all it can to prevent any European nation by itself or together to set up the support structure that allows it to wage serious warfare without USA going along with it.

Not really, if you look at the link I provided on US reaction to a possible UK exit, you'll find that a militarily strong Europe is in their strategic interests. Understandably they don't want to get involved in another European war.

One good thing about the EU is that when European countries disagree with each other these days they do so with machine pencil and heavy calibre word processor rather than invading each other.

Yeah right. They should take a look at exactly how much Denmark for example has done and is doing. Or Netherlands or Sweden.

Very few in the UK were even aware Denmark was in Afghanistan until Series Two of "The Killing" was shown on BBC4....

TV news coverage focuses on the UK effort with some mention of other forces. Not that we've anything on Afghanistan in the news lately with a big chunk of the affluent areas of England being flooded out. It's a major disaster you see.

Mike.

Michael Riddell wrote:Another French attempt to try and dominate the continent and limit Germany?

No? I already mentioned what the original "plan" was.

Not really, if you look at the link I provided on US reaction to a possible UK exit, you'll find that a militarily strong Europe is in their strategic interests.

So explain then why USA has spent so much effort over the last 70 years to make sure Europe doesn´t get militarily strong in any way useful outside of NATO...

Very few in the UK were even aware Denmark was in Afghanistan until Series Two of "The Killing" was shown on BBC4....

Ignorance of facts doesn´t alter the facts.

Tenshinai wrote:No? I already mentioned what the original "plan" was.

I was being tongue-in-cheek, remember, I'm British. Ascribing nefarious motivations to the French comes naturally.

What I wrote is generally considered to be the hidden reason in the UK. I'm not saying it's correct.

So explain then why USA has spent so much effort over the last 70 years to make sure Europe doesn´t get militarily strong in any way useful outside of NATO...

Alright, give me something to read. I can run it through Google Translate if it isn't in English.

Ignorance of facts doesn´t alter the facts.

No dispute there. I knew Denmark (and Holland, Albania, France etc, etc) was there, but then I have an interest in military affairs.

Mike.

Michael Riddell wrote:I was being tongue-in-cheek, remember, I'm British. Ascribing nefarious motivations to the French comes naturally.

What I wrote is generally considered to be the hidden reason in the UK. I'm not saying it's correct.

Ah, sorry didn´t notice.

Michael Riddell wrote:Alright, give me something to read. I can run it through Google Translate if it isn't in English.

Hmmm, that´s a seriously troublesome request actually, it´s rarely discussed by itself so it tends to be difficult to find by search engine.

First search provided at least a show of the mindset in USA:
"”The demilitarization of Europe — where large swaths of the general public and political class are averse to military force and the risks that go with it — has gone from a blessing in the 20th century to an impediment to achieving real security and lasting peace in the 21st,” he said, addressing military officers from many of NATO’s 28 member countries at the defense university."
http://blogs.reuters.com/afghanistan/20 ... ghanistan/


...WTF?... How the heck can i search for something that includes "cold war" and get results about medieval events??? Which doesn´t even have the phrase on the page at all...

Sorry, after searching for an hour, the best i´ve found is STILL the quote by Gates linked above.
Problem is that it doesn´t fall squarely under any easily searched for phrase or category. And not written about all that much either way.

I´ll have to see if i can find something more... But not tonight.

Tenshinai wrote:

The EU is the political model of the Solarian League! It just doesn't have an analogue for the SLN.

Not quite. But it IS far too close.
Did you know the origin of the EU? That the background was to cooperate so that Africa could be properly exploited together instead of fought over... Seriously pathetic to talk about it as a "peace project" when it was meant to become the next generation of colonialism.

My understanding was that one of the main drivers behind the formation of the EU was specifically to neutralize Germany as a military threat to the remainder of Europe. Two world wars had fairly conclusively demonstrated that it was the dominant industrial power in Europe, and there needed to be some way to... divert that potential from simply taking what it needed to. The original intent seemed to be that France would be the dominant partner of the EU, with Germany as the industrial core. Of course, Power tends to follow the money, which is why Germany has once again become the dominant power in Europe.

Tenshinai wrote:

France is the main mover behind greater military integration in the EU, whilst Britain is opposed to the concept as it believes it will weaken NATO. There's also some suspicion in British conservative circles that the French are doing it just to put one in the USA's eye.

Well, reality is that USA is doing all it can to prevent any European nation by itself or together to set up the support structure that allows it to wage serious warfare without USA going along with it.

After WWII, there was some reasonable justification for this insane system, but now it isn´t just obsolete, it´s causing massive problems and nerfs European military on anything beyond small scale.

Completely agree. On a level of realpolitik, the US wants to maintain its dominance on the world stage. It can most effectively do that by subtly breaking up anything that could militarily affect the will of the US. This is very similar to the Grand Strategy of Britain, from about 1600 onward: "Let no one power achieve dominance in Europe." The only real difference is that the US strategy is worldwide. Of course, thanks to a decade spent almost exclusively focused on the middle east, some fairly large cracks are developing in that plan. Two of them are Russia and China. Both have taken advantage of the distraction of the US to consolidate their positions on the world stage. Russia in particular has made huge strides in rectifying the terrible strategic position it was in immediately following the end of the cold war.

Once again completely agree!

Tenshinai wrote:
It should be remembered however that a large part of this is thanks to the stupid implementation of the Euro.

For Greece(and Italy, Spain, Portugal and some few more), the euro is drastically overvalued, killing it´s massive tourism industry, even without the huge corruption issues, it would have been in BIG trouble.

While for Germany, thanks to the poor finances of Greece&Co devaluing the euro, Germany has a MASSIVE export advantage.

One more important thing about the euro should be noted though, and that is the fact that it is dangerously inflationary due to the disparity between member states.

NATO and the EU were US plots to enfeeble Europe?

I always thought that Global Warming Theology and the election of President Obama were European plots to enfeeble the US.

namelessfly wrote:NATO and the EU were US plots to enfeeble Europe?

I always thought that Global Warming Theology and the election of President Obama were European plots to enfeeble the US.

All those claims are rubbish.