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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:15 am

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The intent of the Second Amendment is for citizen's to have a check against our government overstepping its bounds. Seems silly to have government oversight and monitoring of otherwise law abiding citizens exercising their Constitutional check against that very government. So, it makes sense from that point of view.

This attitude is captured by one of our founding Fathers.

James Madison, Federalist #46 wrote:Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people.


Indeed why trust government to secure the rights we hold as citizens? As Madison says, either government is dependent on the electorate or not. If it is, elections will solve almost any representative problems that arise. If not, the combination of local governments and an armed populace will be go a long way to beating back any adventures that a tyrannical Federal government might pursue.

Daryl wrote:My personal guns have been in a national register for decades. Still here & not been "seized" yet.

My "yea!", was just a mischievous impulse, just a gentle tease of some of the ideologues here.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:30 am

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Imaginos, you better provide links. The police departments own figures aren't even close to those numbers.

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:57 am

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PeterZ wrote:The intent of the Second Amendment is for citizen's to have a check against our government overstepping its bounds.


No, that´s what the gunnut folks rant about because they don´t have even the slightest clue about the historical background.

The background of going independent from the British who just happened to try to keep the proto-yanks from having any really serious weapons.

A new independent nation that was meant to be protected NOT by a standing military, but by a well organised militia... Yeah that doesn´t remind of anything at all of course...

PeterZ wrote:Indeed why trust government to secure the rights we hold as citizens?


:lol:

Seriously? If you can´t see the insanity of that statement, i mean just, yikes...

Either you have a government to secure the rights of citizens, or you do not have a nation at all to be citizens in.

The only rights citizens CAN have is what the nation gives them, if you skip that part, you do not have a nation at all and any claims about citizen rights are completely invalid anyway.

PeterZ wrote:If not, the combination of local governments and an armed populace will be go a long way to beating back any adventures that a tyrannical Federal government might pursue.


Wow, so frickin naive its scary.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:52 pm

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Gun buny politics is the biggest dis-service the NRA could possibly do for the American shooters.

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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by smr   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:31 pm

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For all the gun control freaks and wimps...what happened in France shows that the populace does not need to be disarmed. Correct me if I am wrong but France has some the harshest gun control laws in the world. Did that stop the attackers? So, the firearms are not at fault that leaves the individuals who committed this terrible crime responsible. Guns do not kill people but individuals or terrorists do!

Recently, I warned Australia what their own home grown jihadists were advocating. The response was our police and military forces will take care of this. I think this proves that no person can predict this type of event. The Europeans were warned a day before the attacks but was the public informed. They did not warn the public.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:44 pm

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smr wrote:For all the gun control freaks and wimps...what happened in France shows that the populace does not need to be disarmed. Correct me if I am wrong but France has some the harshest gun control laws in the world. Did that stop the attackers? So, the firearms are not at fault that leaves the individuals who committed this terrible crime responsible. Guns do not kill people but individuals or terrorists do!


And there it is, the inevitable idiocy that if there is ever an attack by anyone with guns that means gun control doesn't work. Was wondering how long that would take.

Look at the comparative numbers of shooting victims in the US and France then feel free to come back when you have something intelligent to say on the subject.

The Europeans were warned a day before the attacks.


No they were not. There was an incredibly vague notification that ISIS wanted to attack "all coalition countries and Iraq and Russia." With no time frame or specifics. Which is a lot like saying "ISIS is ISIS".

Absolutely nothing about something that vague is actionable or serves any purpose to communicate to the public.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:40 pm

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My condolences to the victims and their families.
While it is possible (but unlikely) that the attackers might have been stopped earlier if the Parisians had similar personal gun ownership to the US, overall there will still be massively less gun deaths in France per 100,000 than in the US this year.
In the US you are many times more likely to be shot by a fellow citizen or the police than by a terrorist.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:46 pm

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Daryl wrote:My condolences to the victims and their families.
While it is possible (but unlikely) that the attackers might have been stopped earlier if the Parisians had similar personal gun ownership to the US, overall there will still be massively less gun deaths in France per 100,000 than in the US this year.
In the US you are many times more likely to be shot by a fellow citizen or the police than by a terrorist.


Not even going to comment on the most recent insanity. Feel for the victims.

As we have proved it all depends on where you live.

The Laws not so much. Culture huge in relation.

Yep in the US over 80 years based on the current numbers the average person ~840/100000 chance of being killed by a firearm.

The other 99,260 not so much. Personally not concerned.

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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:35 am

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Smr your "For all the gun control freaks and wimps" leads me to wonder which category you place me and each of the others that disagree with you on this topic. I've already expended some testosterone in a previous post proving that I'm not a wimp, and my ownership of a number of firearms should exclude me from being a gun control freak.

Just because others don't agree that every inadequate loser should have automatic access to firearms doesn't make them contemptible. A LtCol of our SAS at the time told me years ago that he thought your gun laws were insane, good luck calling him a wimp or freak!

Those of us outside the US (and I suspect outside the bible belt there), find the concept that it is admirable to hold guns in case you need to violently depose your elected government to be traitorous and just wrong. Not to mention stupidly impracticable. A case of "Leyroy and Bubba take their 30-06s in the Chevvy pickup and go to sort out Washington". Sorry if that offends but it is how we see it.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:38 am

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Daryl wrote:...snip...

Those of us outside the US (and I suspect outside the bible belt there), find the concept that it is admirable to hold guns in case you need to violently depose your elected government to be traitorous and just wrong. Not to mention stupidly impracticable. A case of "Leyroy and Bubba take their 30-06s in the Chevvy pickup and go to sort out Washington". Sorry if that offends but it is how we see it.


"Bible" belt? Just a little anti-religion prejudice showing. Who actually does own guns in the US? Not going into each any of the reasons for it. Not my concern. Suspect all of them will be different and differnet order from time to time.

Take a look at what I stumbled across last night from pew research. And see where that "bible" belt is.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ouseholds/

Not that I expect it to change your prejudices.

Or this one from 2012:
http://publicreligion.org/research/2012 ... ksc_149UcU

Just like when the Tax Enough Already people were all ignorant. Well until the guy did the research found they weren't. Much to his surprise. He still didn't agree with them.

T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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