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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:16 pm

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PeterZ - "I never said the US was unique in the way it views sovereignty. I simply stated most of Europe and the rest of the world did not view sovereignty in this way. Certainly Britain and France don't. France goes so far as to deny the sovereignty of their citizens unless they act as body in elections.

In another thread you stated you were a statist. You accept that the elected agents of your government are the proper people to make social and economic decisions in your country. You effectively asserted those agents are better at exercising your sovereignty for you. At that point it doesn't matter if you are legally sovereign or not. That mindset works for many people but is not one I find admirable."

We'll have to disagree on this one as unless you PZ act as a statist you would be in jail quite quickly, as would any citizen of any functioning country that refused to follow the nationally set rules.
Do I assert that those agents are better than I am at exercising my sovereignty? No, of course not and if I'm unhappy at what is being done in my name then I work at letter writing and other tactics to influence the next election. However I'm unable (as you would be) to act directly on every matter of social and economic significance, only so many hours in the day.

You may not realise it but your every post on this matter has a subtle sneer implying that all the rest of us are sheep who aren't free, while you as a gun toting US citizen are, and thus we are virtually slaves to our governments. Most irritating and wrong.
During the past 8 years you have had one leader, while we have had five. We sacked four of them for not listening to us. Our politicians know that they lead at our sufferance.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:36 am

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Well, it seems that I acted as a mirror to your and others' not so subtle sneer at core beliefs many Americans hold. We disagree on those values and will likely not find much common ground. You find many of us Americans gun toting Yahoos. I find your belief that empowering government to make ever more decisions for citizens ...not worthy of admiration. Does that make you a serf or slave? Empower government to the extent of the USSR and the answer is yes. Yet if that pleases you, by all means live like that. If your preference is not quite that extreme a government, by all means work to that end. Allow me and those who believe as i do our preference.

I prefer a very limited government. That I do not argue for acting like those Black Lives Matter idiots to promote smaller government does not mean I condone government's current intrusiveness. If some progressive statistic tries to turn the US into something like the Third Reich or the USSA, I reserve the right to exercise my sovereignty and resist however violently is necessary.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:49 am

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I've got no problem with citizens owning guns (pauses to pat a gun cabinet in reach), but do not understand either the unrestricted access to guns for any lunatic in some parts of the USA, or the principle that it would be OK to use guns to kill people if you decided your democratically elected government was doing stuff that you personally didn't like.
As to "I find your belief that empowering government to make ever more decisions for citizens ...not worthy of admiration", have you not read any of my recent posts? In the 8 years of your current president's term we have sacked 5 Prime Ministers. We actually don't tolerate overreach by government and have the mechanisms to do something about it. Once again a snide comment indicating that you believe we are lesser because we apparently encourage despotism. Just not true and insulting.

I've travelled extensively for many years, and have seen no indications that developed countries are not free, and overall most are getting even freer. The internet, twitter, facebook, etc have empowered average citizens to report any overreach, and nip despotism in the bud. Not guns, tablets.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:55 am

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Good for you sacking those governments that over reach. Not being snide. I too have done a fair bit of traveling. I don't agree with your assessment. The regulations for just opening a business in Europe is much greater than here. Heck, the level of certifications needed to work various fields seems excessive to me. Yet, that is the preference for Europeans. I do not wish our government to emulate that model.

I do not understand how anyone would like that, yet it is clear many do. C'est la vie.

Btw, the right to bear arms is seen by many Americans as the Constitutional recognition that our sovereignty is owned by the individual citizen not by the citizenry as a whole. Whether that makes sense to others or not is beside the point. To infringe upon that is to infringe on the sovereignty we hold as defined by the Constitution.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:39 pm

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Btw, the right to bear arms is seen by many Americans as the Constitutional recognition that our sovereignty is owned by the individual citizen not by the citizenry as a whole.


Which is basically a delusion and has nothing what so ever to do with reality.
You can believe whatever you wish, that does not make it reality.

And if you ever clash with someone who acts based on reality, then you´re the one that will end up in deep shit.

Whether that makes sense to others or not is beside the point. To infringe upon that is to infringe on the sovereignty we hold as defined by the Constitution.


Except that´s not what your constitution says.

Not being snide.


You say that, and in the same post you act snide again. And you never actually bother to read and UNDERSTAND what people reply with.


There is no realistic difference in sovereignty between most "free" nations. Neither in writing nor in practice.
End of story.

Yet, that is the preference for Europeans. I do not wish our government to emulate that model.


"that model"? Which one? British?
Spanish? French? Norwegian?
Even if you´re being very imprecise, there´s still over 15 "models" in Europe.

Well, it seems that I acted as a mirror to your and others' not so subtle sneer at core beliefs many Americans hold.


You see, that´s the problem. Beliefs vs reality. You sit there and act snide and arrogant about the inferiority of others based on prejudice, delusion and outright lies.
You´re living the lie, the national indoctrination, the national myth, and everything else is just evil lies from nasty statist commies or whatever.


Statistics from 1950s to 2000s say that a west European is on average about twice as likely to improve their socioeconomic position compared to their parents, as in USA.
For my own country, it´s four times as likely compared to USA.

Yet you complain about the terrible business regulations in "Europe". Among many other things.
At the same time as in USA, companies spend many times more on lawyers than in Europe, and corruption is most comparable to some of the mafia-controlled towns in Italy.

Yeah! Way to go!

I was going to write something that connected back with the thread topic but i´m going to bed, so whatever or something.

The Beliebers wont notice reality anyway(and no, that was not bad spelling).
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:00 am

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I do have a slight problem with people owning guns.
My neighbour is batshit crazy!
:)

Actually, that pretty much sums up my opinions on gun regulations.
My neighbour is batshit crazy. Not a single person in town would be comfortable with her owning a gun.
Under our laws, she wouldn't be able too.
That makes me feel much safer.


Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:29 am

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Under our laws he wouldn't be either. Current background checks disqualifies those that are batshit crazy.
Annachie wrote:I do have a slight problem with people owning guns.
My neighbour is batshit crazy!
:)

Actually, that pretty much sums up my opinions on gun regulations.
My neighbour is batshit crazy. Not a single person in town would be comfortable with her owning a gun.
Under our laws, she wouldn't be able too.
That makes me feel much safer.


Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:54 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Under our laws he wouldn't be either. Current background checks disqualifies those that are batshit crazy.


Only if they've been diagnosed. In a lot of cases the event that triggers them being sat down in front of a psychiatrist is "he just shot up a place, let's see if her gets to use an insanity defense" however.

And that only if they're not, say, buying their guns on the private market where no background check occurs rather than through a licensed dealer.


In other news, another Wednesday afternoon in the United States:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by smr   » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:17 pm

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Did that stop the terrorists in France from buying Guns...when are the wimps going to understand we are in WW3. The evil or criminal type people will ignore the laws and commit acts of terrors and lawlessness. The funny thing that we have a person commit an act of lunacy and shoot up a PP clinic that the incident is immediately labeled domestic terrorism. However, the Federal government is scared or the incidents does not fit the narrative or government propaganda of gun control and mass shootings. A day later they are afraid to call the incident a domestic terrorist event or incident.

Tenshania:

In 1929, the German government banned guns. In 1938, they changed the laws to allow hunting rifles and shotguns. That same act banned all Jews from owning weapons. Please get your facts straight. Some of the articles were deliberately misquoting or using revisionist history to make their points.

gcomeau wrote:
PeterZ wrote:Under our laws he wouldn't be either. Current background checks disqualifies those that are batshit crazy.


Only if they've been diagnosed. In a lot of cases the event that triggers them being sat down in front of a psychiatrist is "he just shot up a place, let's see if her gets to use an insanity defense" however.

And that only if they're not, say, buying their guns on the private market where no background check occurs rather than through a licensed dealer.


In other news, another Wednesday afternoon in the United States:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:26 pm

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smr wrote:Did that stop the terrorists in France from buying Guns...


Let's see... the US has had how many HUNDRED mass shootings THIS YEAR?

France has had... 1? 2?

What the hell do you think the answer to your question is?

when are the wimps going to understand we are in WW3.


Wow, someone has no idea what a World War is, but that level of crazily over the top fear and paranoia is consistent with an apparently pathological need to cling to a weapon to make yourself feel safer from the big bad scary world I guess...
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