Guns, Guns Guns

Daryl wrote:To our US friends. You need to know how the western world media portrays your country on the gun issue. Regarding the current NRA convention, today we saw two of your "shock jocks" discussing how they said their opposition were misrepresenting the issue. They were upset that immediate relative of recent victims were being getting airtime. The key comment that has gone around the world was (paraphrased) "How dare they bleat about their losses? It is much more important that free men not be ruled by Kings". There was much more of the same or similar. Sorry but if people like this are not only saying such, but not in padded rooms somewhere, the rest of the civilised world will not be sympathetic. I was raised with guns, put myself through university by selling kangaroo skins and wild pig carcasses, and still have a gun collection; but am appalled by such an attitude. How do you think the sheeples in big cities will react?
Incidentally what are the Kings that scare these idiots?

Those are the kind of idiots who should be completely barred from owning guns at all.

Tenshinai wrote:

Daryl wrote:To our US friends. You need to know how the western world media portrays your country on the gun issue. Regarding the current NRA convention, today we saw two of your "shock jocks" discussing how they said their opposition were misrepresenting the issue. They were upset that immediate relative of recent victims were being getting airtime. The key comment that has gone around the world was (paraphrased) "How dare they bleat about their losses? It is much more important that free men not be ruled by Kings". There was much more of the same or similar. Sorry but if people like this are not only saying such, but not in padded rooms somewhere, the rest of the civilised world will not be sympathetic. I was raised with guns, put myself through university by selling kangaroo skins and wild pig carcasses, and still have a gun collection; but am appalled by such an attitude. How do you think the sheeples in big cities will react?
Incidentally what are the Kings that scare these idiots?

Those are the kind of idiots who should be completely barred from owning guns at all.

There is a continuum of thought on the issue from no control what so ever to banning private ownership.

The United States was born in revolution, the first shots were fired when the British sent troops to seize the the militia's powder stores in Massachusetts.

The people you call idiots we call patriots who stood up to King George III. It's a cultural thing. That foreign government controlled media disses our country is no surprise and, to them I say .

Poker

PS. Got a PM hoping I don't get banned for the FU icon. It was to show the usual American reaction to world opinion on the subject and, clearly directed at the foreign media not our two posters.

Many of us love this cartoon,"The last great act of defiance:"



To further show the American opinion this art just appeared on facebook:



Showing the 'martial law' like clap down during the search for the bombing suspects violating the rights of citizens against unlawful search. Do you see any of the jackbooted thugs showing a warrent? Our government violating 'posi comuattus' act by creating homeland security and continuing to erode our rights.

Want a Sci-Fi cautionary tale of overreaching governmental tyranny try David Weber's Shadow of Freedom. No President Obama and similar of his ilk we'll keep our guns, bibles, and freedom here in flyover country!

Revised by

Poker

pokermind wrote:There is a continuum of thought on the issue from no control what so ever to banning private ownership.

The United States was born in revolution, the first shots were fired when the British sent troops to seize the the militia's powder stores in Massachusetts.

The people you call idiots we call patriots who stood up to King George III. It's a cultural thing. That foreign government controlled media disses our country is no surprise and, to them I say .

Poker

PS. Got a PM hoping I don't get banned for the FU icon. It was to show the usual American reaction to world opinion on the subject and, clearly directed at the foreign media not our two posters.

Many of us love this cartoon,"The last great act of defiance:"



To further show the American opinion this art just appeared on facebook:



Showing the 'martial law' like clap down during the search for the bombing suspects violating the rights of citizens against unlawful search. Do you see any of the jackbooted thugs showing a warrent? Our government violating 'posi comuattus' act by creating homeland security and continuing to erode our rights.

Want a Sci-Fi cautionary tale of overreaching governmental tyranny try David Weber's Shadow of Freedom. No President Obama and similar of his ilk we'll keep our guns, bibles, and freedom here in flyover country!

Revised by

Poker

ugh, not all foreign media critical of the USA is 'foreign government-controlled media'. Some of us non-Americans have freedom of the press too you know. And lots of that press is equally critical of America.

Hi JimHacker,

Yes the press is still free but, mass media (Radio & TV) now and, soon by UN treaty the internet will be controlled by governments. With the demise of the news paper that freedom of the press will be as useful as writing on bathroom walls for disseminating information.

Kinda irritating when ignorant foreigners diss your country ain't it but, with reasoned responses even when we strongly disagree we can all learn something. I learned here that England and Australasia banned assault rifles after deranged attacks on schools and, note the same pattern here. Some of the more rabid suggest the Government is involved historical coincidence feeds conspiracy theorists, after all "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

While I may not agree I must say I enjoy seeing the opinions of those from other countries on this issue. I hope to have presented just why some the United States see thing differentially. I personally view the militarization of the police with alarm, as police arrest criminals, while the military services targets. This militarization came in with the 'War On Drugs' in the 1970s first SWAT teams, and now a Homeland Security Army of Occupation that the above photo showed in action in Massachusetts.

Poker

pokermind wrote:Hi JimHacker,

Yes the press is still free but, mass media (Radio & TV) now and, soon by UN treaty the internet will be controlled by governments. With the demise of the news paper that freedom of the press will be as useful as writing on bathroom walls for disseminating information.

Kinda irritating when ignorant foreigners diss your country ain't it but, with reasoned responses even when we strongly disagree we can all learn something. I learned here that England and Australasia banned assault rifles after deranged attacks on schools and, note the same pattern here. Some of the more rabid suggest the Government is involved historical coincidence feeds conspiracy theorists, after all "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

While I may not agree I must say I enjoy seeing the opinions of those from other countries on this issue. I hope to have presented just why some the United States see thing differentially. I personally view the militarization of the police with alarm, as police arrest criminals, while the military services targets. This militarization came in with the 'War On Drugs' in the 1970s first SWAT teams, and now a Homeland Security Army of Occupation that the above photo showed in action in Massachusetts.

Poker

Radio and TV isn't controlled by governments in most places. It may be regulated by governments/legislative bodies/quangos but it isn't 'controlled', in the western world at least. And if you think the greatest threat to internet freedoms is the UN you are delusional. The UN wouldn't be able to agree whether to steer to port or starboard if on a ship heading for a rocky outcrop. And it has very little power either. The greatest threat to internet freedoms currently comes from the US (and from all 3 branches - legislative, executive and judicial). As do the threats (mostly from court rulings) to international commerce law, consumer rights etc. And the only courts standing up to them are the German ones.

The militarisation of the police is something we agree on as its something i view with alarm too as through pop culture it's starting to seep over here as well. One of the key principals of policing here is meant to be 'policing by common/community consent'. The majority of police (95%) aren't armed with firearms. And incidentally, in a survey about a decade ago 97% of police officers agreed with that policy and almost 20% said it was a resigning issue if they were ever compelled to wear a fire-arm. But the militarisation is creeping in slowly. And although currently the law is that officers have to work their way up from the bottom (minimum two years as constable walking the streets) in order to qualify to become chief constable politicians keep on talking about changing that to hire in foreign police chiefs (mostly american) to crack down in the 'war on drugs' or the 'war on crime'.

Reports of American SWAT teams storming a building at 4am, shooting the dog etc simply because a local police department has been asked by a financial institution to assist in a foreclosure and, upon running a backgroundcheck, they discover the (former) owner had a conviction for fraud or doing drugs several years ago alarm me.

Incidentally, i'm pretty sure assault weapons were already banned. I think it was a case of semi-automatic weapons being banned and regulations on collector's permits being tightened after a massacre.


Yes I agree that we learn more about each other through our disagreements and reasoned discussion. I just don't like sweeping assertions that 'all media critical of us is run by a foreign government'. But it's not as bad as a guy who told me several years ago that the reason the US military was the best in the world was because it was the only one not to use conscription.

So it's King George 111 that is the King they're frightened of. Perhaps someone should tell them he's dead? The next British King will be Charlie, and he couldn't dominate anything. Generally the western free press doesn't treat the US disrespectfully on most topics, but they do reflect their reader's opinions, and those readers are totally incapable of understanding the mindset of the NRA or the concept that citizens should consider the armed overthrow of their democratically elected government as a viable option. I'm sorry Poker, but unlike Tenshinai I don't regard these shock jocks as idiots, nor like you as patriots, but as seriously insane. How can you be a patriot who believes it is ok to overthrow your own government? Surely a patriot is loyal to their government?
Another area that the western world citizens outside the US find problematic is the apparent belief that the US has a moral right to interfere in other sovereign countries. The current topic of considering a military response to Syria if they use chemical weapons on their people, begs the question, why is it any business of the US? If the UN passes a resolution and a multinational force goes in that would be appropriate but not an individual country that feels it has the moral high ground. Lots of others find the fact that the US still has the death penalty to be appalling, yet I imagine you wouldn't react well if we invaded to stop it.

but unlike Tenshinai I don't regard these shock jocks as idiots, nor like you as patriots, but as seriously insane.

Unlike me? Idiots and insane are pretty much the same in this case i would say. At least that´s what was intended.

Surely a patriot is loyal to their government?

Even by default definition, patriotism doesn´t have to have anything to do with loyalty to the government. Usually it means loyalty to the nation.

But oh dear no. In USA, it goes a step further, a piece of paper is considered THE ultimate thing to be loyal to.

Hi Daryl,

Kinda odd I agree, and the last time it was tried in the USA the CSA lost the Civil War. But, still the founding fathers are lionized, and their revolutionary quotes, reasons for the bill of rights, including the second amendment carry weight here. It is necessary to understand this in order understand the opposition to any erosion of the rights of the people in the USA. Nor is the conservative attitude of country boys anything new the early Christians called country boys who would not gave up their old religion Pagans or country folk.

@ Tenshinai "But oh dear no. In USA, it goes a step further, a piece of paper is considered THE ultimate thing to be loyal to."

That's a fact Jack! So

Oops so,

Poker

The United States was born in revolution, the first shots were fired when the British sent troops to seize the the militia's powder stores in Massachusetts.

And how much difference have actual private ownership of guns made for revolutions? Most of the time, near zero, or worse.

The so called Arab spring, was started in the nation with the least privately owned firearms in the world.
Personal ownership of firearms as a way to oppose government is utter rubbish. It is in fact even more often a negative.
That´s what happened in Tianamen square in China, the peaceful demonstration was doing well up until a bunch of idiots started shooting seriously at the same military.

And born in revolution? Lol... As if that´s supposed to be unique somehow?

You should try looking at the history of nations around the world, see if there are more "born in revolution" than not.

The people you call idiots we call patriots who stood up to King George III

Really? As far as i can recall they didn´t want to pay as much taxes and also wanted representation in UK.

Oh right, one more of the myths USA likes to pretend is real. Because falsifying history is ok as long as it´s the right people doing it.

That foreign government controlled media disses our country is no surprise

Wow, get a grip man. That is actually such an ignorant claim that i´m at a loss for words.

You´re acting and thinking like the extremeists in the middle east.

If anything, i´ll say this, if you look at media around the world, government controlled media are the ones LESS critical of USA.
And USA still generally gets treated with silk gloves.
It would actually be damned funny if some media started using the same standards for media reporting about USA as is common about Russia.

So you see, all that "dissing" comes despite USA getting the "good guy" treatment/excuses. Shouldn´t that tell you something?

Yes the press is still free but, mass media (Radio & TV) now and, soon by UN treaty the internet will be controlled by governments.

Oh please, "the great UN conspiracy"... Like already said, that is simply delusional.

I learned here that England and Australasia banned assault rifles after deranged attacks on schools and, note the same pattern here.

There´s no good reason for not banning assault rifles on a legal basis. Noone NEEDS that kind of weapons, and the danger they pose to the public at large means banning them becomes the logical choice.

I hope to have presented just why some the United States see thing differentially.

Yup, delusions, paranoia, extremeism and myths. You pretty much prove the "dissing" right.

Face the facts, as long as the government controls the military and police, private ownership of guns is irrelevant.
The revolution that caused the USSR to break up showed that extremely graphically.

@Tenshinai

While I agree with most of your points I feel you are stepping over the line between 'forthright' and 'rude' just a little. While I respect the fortitude of your opinions (many of which I share) please try to rein yourself in just a little or else things might devolve into a flame war again.