The European Union - Discussion.

thinkstoomuch wrote:PS Henry Ford is one of my heroes but the boy had issues. Probably why he was so successful.

I believe that one thing Ford and Hitler had in common was antisemitism.

Anyway, I remember reading a long time ago that Hitler distrusted German "Big Business" because he viewed it as tainted. That's about as "Socialist" as he got.

Nameless, your latching onto that "S" word again too easily. Nazism was an extreme form of Fascism, no more , no less. There may have been some Socialist elements, but Europeans classify Nazism as right-wing, not left.

Europeans draw a very distinct line between the extreme political right, normally Fascists or Neo-Nazis, and the extreme political left, normally loony-left Socialists and Communists. Extreme nationalism, as we're seeing manifest itself in Ukraine, is synonymous with the extreme right, thanks mainly to Mussolini's and Hitler's policies. Due to the European experience of the 20's through 40's, the extreme right is viewed with suspicion on this side of the Atlantic.

Even our Conservative political parties are generally center or center-right, rather than actually on the political right, if you get what I mean. Which is why you get so much friction between Americans and Europeans on political doctrine and what right and left actually mean. By European standards, both the Democrats and Republicans are off to the right. Obama may be a Socialist by US standards, but by European, he's a Conservative. It also might give an insight on the European reaction to the likes of the Tea-Party and extreme Republicans. By the same token, it can also explain why some Americans view Europe as bunch of Communists. Neither reaction is very logical and is exacerbated by stereotypes and misinformation.

Mike.

Europeans draw a very distinct line between the extreme political right, normally Fascists or Neo-Nazis, and the extreme political left, normally loony-left Socialists and Communists

Ironically if you look at how they behave and what they do rather than what they say, the extreme right and the extreme left are a LOT alike.

biochem wrote:Ironically if you look at how they behave and what they do rather than what they say, the extreme right and the extreme left are a LOT alike.

Very true, which is why their both disliked by the political mainstream. They're both equally scary in their own ways. Extremism gets people killed in job lots.

Mike.

Bruno Behrends wrote:A part of it was that the Nazis were trying to coopt just about anyone. So their party name included both extremes of the political spectrum.

I am sure there is more to it and I forgot it. One would have to have a closer look at their politics to see if there was any 'socialist' element in it. There may have been and I simply forgot since school was long, long ago. Anyway I think the party name was never meant as a true descriptive of their politics but rather a label to sell it to as many people as possible.

Anyway - double think certainly sums it up well.

Pretty much yeah. Another part for the "social(ist)" part is based on how they promoted group and "everyone together now" thinking. That everything was automatically "better" if more people were doing it together.

I.e. literally being social.

Wether it was intentionally so to enable easier mass indoctrination, or just based on conviction, uncertain, but with humans tending strongly towards being social, it became a very effective tool.

Bruno Behrends wrote:Edit: The party name is even more crass if you savour the whole of it: "National Socialist German Worker's Party"

They were trying to coopt the extreme right nationalists, the socialists, the center and the working class.

Yup, all the larger groups as well as all the more "interesting" disgruntled groups.

Still though, the socialists as a group was from the very start outspokenly the "BIG BAD" archenemy, mixed with a "Evil Jew" caricature.


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Invictus wrote:I wasn't, but its hard to compress 50 years of history into a paragraph without missing the odd empire or two

True. It just looked a bit incomplete.

(Facepalm) I knew that... I need to get more sleep.

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thinkstoomuch wrote:My recollection was that socialism here in the US was deemed the wave of the future

USA was never a "supporter" of socialism, and was one of those invading Russia/USSR during the civil war between reds and whites. In cooperation with Japan they held a HUGE chunk of Sibiria.

(though if Henry Ford was for it puts a serious question into the value

Henry Ford? He had is own goon squads spying on his workers (and kicking their teeth out if they tried something evil like getting better pay or working conditions) and managed to get the "biggest" award nazi-Germany gave to nazi-sympathizers.

Curious if anyone has a link to some of Hitler's speeches from around 1929-32.

Are you sure you want to read them? Boooring.

Anyway, here you go:
http://www.hitler.org/speeches/
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... 0Index.htm (only from 1933 and onwards but better format)

namelessfly wrote:Here is a good source.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... 0Index.htm

Mien Kompf should be required reading.

Hitler's political dogma was a wicked brew of nationalism, racism, eugenic and Malthusism that were the premisses that justified the territorial expansion and ethnic cleansing that was presumably needed to establish a socialist paradise.

Riiiight...

The end result was supposed to be the Great and everlasting Empire of Superior Beings.

No socialist paradise anywhere in sight.

At least get your prejudices right.

Michael Riddell wrote:Even our Conservative political parties are generally center or center-right, rather than actually on the political right, if you get what I mean. Which is why you get so much friction between Americans and Europeans on political doctrine and what right and left actually mean.

Not just Europe, it´s USA definition vs most of the rest of the world definitions.

And if you trace definitions towards origin of definition, rest of the world is certainly more right than wrong.

And the differences have become more divergent over time, with USA increasingly deviating.

Michael Riddell wrote:By European standards, both the Democrats and Republicans are off to the right. Obama may be a Socialist by US standards, but by European, he's a Conservative.

Ehm, Obama isn´t socialist by ANY sane standards.
And that includes by USA standards. It´s an easy to throw around slur, that isn´t unacceptable by the cultural norms of USA.

Next generation definitions will be seriously skewed though, after all this propaganda.

The Nazis did not nationalize most industries except banks and railroads. However; they very aggressively subjugated business to the needs of the Stats and the "Folk." The Nazis expanded and exploited the national health service.


Of course the racism was virulent and overt. However; Hitler's demonisation of the Jews was no different than Obama's demonization of "the 1%".

Michael Riddell wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:PS Henry Ford is one of my heroes but the boy had issues. Probably why he was so successful.

I believe that one thing Ford and Hitler had in common was antisemitism.

Anyway, I remember reading a long time ago that Hitler distrusted German "Big Business" because he viewed it as tainted. That's about as "Socialist" as he got.

Nameless, your latching onto that "S" word again too easily. Nazism was an extreme form of Fascism, no more , no less. There may have been some Socialist elements, but Europeans classify Nazism as right-wing, not left.

Europeans draw a very distinct line between the extreme political right, normally Fascists or Neo-Nazis, and the extreme political left, normally loony-left Socialists and Communists. Extreme nationalism, as we're seeing manifest itself in Ukraine, is synonymous with the extreme right, thanks mainly to Mussolini's and Hitler's policies. Due to the European experience of the 20's through 40's, the extreme right is viewed with suspicion on this side of the Atlantic.

Even our Conservative political parties are generally center or center-right, rather than actually on the political right, if you get what I mean. Which is why you get so much friction between Americans and Europeans on political doctrine and what right and left actually mean. By European standards, both the Democrats and Republicans are off to the right. Obama may be a Socialist by US standards, but by European, he's a Conservative. It also might give an insight on the European reaction to the likes of the Tea-Party and extreme Republicans. By the same token, it can also explain why some Americans view Europe as bunch of Communists. Neither reaction is very logical and is exacerbated by stereotypes and misinformation.

Mike.

So if there is no difference,

"Of course the racism was virulent and overt. However; Hitler's demonisation of the Jews was no different than Obama's demonization of "the 1%"."

then where are the camps and ovens located in the USA at present?

Daryl wrote:So if there is no difference,

"Of course the racism was virulent and overt. However; Hitler's demonisation of the Jews was no different than Obama's demonization of "the 1%"."

then where are the camps and ovens located in the USA at present?

You are jumping the gun quite a lot.

There is a reason that I was asking for the text of Hitler's speeches from 1929. This is one of them. A very minor one!

Though namelessfly may be jumping the gun as well. After all, I believe that, the ovens didn't start until after the war started. Going after their money and possessions was much earlier.

Problem is if that is what President Obama is trying, he is going after it in singularly inept fashion. Not to mention the first people who can buy guns and people are the rich.

Good political strategy to create mobs though.

T2M

namelessfly wrote:The Nazis did not nationalize most industries except banks and railroads. However; they very aggressively subjugated business to the needs of the Stats and the "Folk." The Nazis expanded and exploited the national health service.

Heh, the industry would probalby have worked BETTER if it HAD been nationalised!

The amount of resources wasted just because they wanted to make sure there was "proper" competition between companies, ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that following that, some companies were still "more equal" than others.

namelessfly wrote:Of course the racism was virulent and overt. However; Hitler's demonisation of the Jews was no different than Obama's demonization of "the 1%".

Oh goodness...
How pathetic can you people get?

Heck, even Clinton got more people killed than Obama FFS! And how many times more president shrubbery killed...

His biggest problem is that he´s NOT forcing policies through, that he´s trying to build consensus by compromising(and can´t get it to work), and you´re actually trying to compare him with the world´s worst genocidal massmurderer?

Disgusting.