Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

n7axw wrote:There probably isn't a whole lot of rerigging needed to use them as dorms. Just reposition them and make sure nobody has access to the systems that make thing go or the weapons systems. They were carrrying 6000 people in what I presume to be reasonable comfort, after all.

As for whether or not they are needed, kzt's post earlier in this thread gave me a quite a bit of food for thought. Given the way he details the difficulty of rebuilding the industrial base, sds may well not be needed. The logical extension of kzt's point is that it is going to take time, and probably a good deal of it, before the problems he details can be overcome which in turn would meam that there will be comparatively few people working out in space, probably rebuilding the shells for Hysphasteas, Vulvan, and Wayland. If that is true it probably would make more sense to build the housing as you go, expanding it as needed.

I think some of us here are badly over optimistc on how long it will take to build shipyards capable of turning out actual warships. And remember that SEM is not counting on that. Building of warships as well as most of R&D people have been shipped off to bolthole. The more technically advanced stuff is for near to intermediate term future going to Beowulf.

It is going to take a quite a while for things to be back to normal at Manticore, gang.

Don

Soon after David released his plans for Oyster Bay and it's aftermath for Manticore, we created a list of the available construction resources Manticore had available within it's own resources to rebuild. The list was actually quite ...formidable.

The list contained both physical resources and manpower, we came up with ~20 resources available for rebuilding. While most were not capable of rebuilding on their own, they would be a source for technologies, repair ships, and trained manpower to start rebuilding and train the new generation of workers.

If I can remember them...

1) The 40,000 ex-Grendlesbane workers
2) The construction tech reps on every ship produced
3) The 2 Million workers saved from Weyland
4) The repair base at Hancock
5) The mini-Hesphaetus base at Basilisk
6) The fleet base at San Martin (mini-Hesphaetus?)
7) The fleet repair depot at the Manticore Wormhole (for Fort Maintenance)
8) The fort assembly forces at the Lynx Terminus.
9) The fleet base at Sidemore
10) The commercial repair assets that keep up the habitats of the 300 million people living in Manticore B space. (yes, 300 Million people.. living in space and NOT at Weyland)
11) Any fabrication assets in Manticore B space or repurposed habitats
12) The commercial maintenance assets at the Manticore Wormhole Terminus.
13) The surviving construction slips in Manticore A space (while the slips themselves were mostly useless because they did not have any fabrication modules, they probably had construction tools at them
14) Any intact modules or fabrication or construction hardware which could be salvaged (~5-10%)
15) The ~4% of the workforce on Vacation away from the stations (US workforce average)
16) The ~5% of the workforce which commuted to the stations and was off duty during the attack or on business trip. (US multi-city Commute average and business trip average)
17) The ~4% of the workforce that were Knowledge-based workers that telecommmute and teleoperate hardware (modified US workforce average).
18) The RMN Fleet Repair and Depot ships
19) Any Talbott based repair ships
20) Any Talbott shipyard
21) Any Silensia based repair ship
22) Any Silensia shipyard
23) Any Solarian fleet repair ships captured at Spindle.

The Talbot and Silensian shipyards could be counted on for low-tech construction (empty fabrication modules, habitation modules, etc.) as well as a source of trained (to a degree) space construction workers.

Note: Andermani, Havenite, Beowulfian, or other 3rd party assets are not mentioned here. We also discussed the surviving BC level yard at Allizon and the SD yard at Talbot (star system).

The Telecommuting average was a difficult #, because telecommuting would increase in the future, as it has in the last 40 years. It is not unheard of for 1 or 2 individuals to control hundreds of teleoperated systems around the globe currently. An engineer or Manager would have no need to be on the stations for their daily jobs, yet could be managing the teams there or building prototypes using the fab machines there. Multiple robotic factories could be run from a centralized location with experienced operators managing them all, with only a handful of maintenance and quality control workers on had at each. In fact a good portion of the "intellectual" workforce need not be on the stations themselves, but could live anywhere within a few light seconds. In reality, this could be 20+% of the workforce.

The 300 Million people in Manticore B space (and the 100,000s of thousands or millions in Manticore A space) All have habitats they live and work in. Remember only a couple 100 people died at Weyland, and only 2 Million or so evacuated. There are hundreds, if not thousands of habitats all over the Manticore system which could be repurposed, permanently or temporarily, for the rebuild effort.

David repeated asserted that all shipbuilding was focused at the 3 stations and no other Manticore yards exist. Almost all Heavy fabrication took place at the stations as well, but the light fabrication was spread around the system, leaving plenty of "Spaceley's Sprokets" and "Cosgove's Cogs" level fabrication existant for the rebuilding effort.

kzt wrote:The way you reduce crew sizes on the SLN SDs is abandon functions. For example, mount crews. That means if things break they stay broken until someone can get to them. But if you are not short of weapon mounts that might be a viable trade-off.

The conversation at the time was that you need 1500-2000 men just to maintain the ships long term without warfighting capabilities, but still have it able to move and house (extra) people.

Without automation, if your ship's "crew" falls under this level, you slowly lose basic functionality of the ship, or sacrifice functions as you said.

kenl511 wrote:Otherwise, I agree with Theemile's signature.
Ain't there a line about professionals and logistics?

I think that you are thinking of:

Amateurs discuss tactics,.... Professional soldiers study logistics

-Supposedly attributed to Tom Clancy, but I think it has been around longer than that.

And I'm out...got some logistics to do...

I seem to recall earlier threads where myself and others suggested that many of these resources would be available for rebuilding. Our suggestions were rejected.

To this list I would add all of the fabrication modules and machine tools that were in transit on Manticoran merchant ships when Case Lacoon I & II were implemented.

I will reinterate the calculation.

There are 2,000 systems in the Honorverse.

Perhaps 500, more recent colonies need to import fabrication modules and machine tools to establish and upgrade their industry and buy from Manticore.

On average their goal is to have perhaps 1/20 of Manticore's pre OB industrial capacity.

The intend to achieve this goal in 20 years.

Therefore; the equivalent of approximately 1/20 x 1/20 x 500 Manticore's industrial capacity is sold each year. Perhaps 1/4 of this is in transit when Case Lacoon is implemented.

Therefore; the equivalent of1/4 x 1/20 x 1/20 x 500 = 500 / 1,600s or about 1/3 of Manticore's original industrial plant resides in the holds of Manticoran Merchantmen who are being recalled by Case Lacoon II.

I say again, ONE THIRD OF MANTICORE'S INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY.

SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED.

Other assets include the industrial capacity of any SL system that Manticore occupies as a consequence of Admiral Henke going on the warpath. This includes the Meyers system and...

MESA

I suggest taking Yilden next.

Theemile wrote:

n7axw wrote:There probably isn't a whole lot of rerigging needed to use them as dorms. Just reposition them and make sure nobody has access to the systems that make thing go or the weapons systems. They were carrrying 6000 people in what I presume to be reasonable comfort, after all.

As for whether or not they are needed, kzt's post earlier in this thread gave me a quite a bit of food for thought. Given the way he details the difficulty of rebuilding the industrial base, sds may well not be needed. The logical extension of kzt's point is that it is going to take time, and probably a good deal of it, before the problems he details can be overcome which in turn would meam that there will be comparatively few people working out in space, probably rebuilding the shells for Hysphasteas, Vulvan, and Wayland. If that is true it probably would make more sense to build the housing as you go, expanding it as needed.

I think some of us here are badly over optimistc on how long it will take to build shipyards capable of turning out actual warships. And remember that SEM is not counting on that. Building of warships as well as most of R&D people have been shipped off to bolthole. The more technically advanced stuff is for near to intermediate term future going to Beowulf.

It is going to take a quite a while for things to be back to normal at Manticore, gang.

Don

Soon after David released his plans for Oyster Bay and it's aftermath for Manticore, we created a list of the available construction resources Manticore had available within it's own resources to rebuild. The list was actually quite ...formidable.

The list contained both physical resources and manpower, we came up with ~20 resources available for rebuilding. While most were not capable of rebuilding on their own, they would be a source for technologies, repair ships, and trained manpower to start rebuilding and train the new generation of workers.

If I can remember them...

1) The 40,000 ex-Grendlesbane workers
2) The construction tech reps on every ship produced
3) The 2 Million workers saved from Weyland
4) The repair base at Hancock
5) The mini-Hesphaetus base at Basilisk
6) The fleet base at San Martin (mini-Hesphaetus?)
7) The fleet repair depot at the Manticore Wormhole (for Fort Maintenance)
8) The fort assembly forces at the Lynx Terminus.
9) The fleet base at Sidemore
10) The commercial repair assets that keep up the habitats of the 300 million people living in Manticore B space. (yes, 300 Million people.. living in space and NOT at Weyland)
11) Any fabrication assets in Manticore B space or repurposed habitats
12) The commercial maintenance assets at the Manticore Wormhole Terminus.
13) The surviving construction slips in Manticore A space (while the slips themselves were mostly useless because they did not have any fabrication modules, they probably had construction tools at them
14) Any intact modules or fabrication or construction hardware which could be salvaged (~5-10%)
15) The ~4% of the workforce on Vacation away from the stations (US workforce average)
16) The ~5% of the workforce which commuted to the stations and was off duty during the attack or on business trip. (US multi-city Commute average and business trip average)
17) The ~4% of the workforce that were Knowledge-based workers that telecommmute and teleoperate hardware (modified US workforce average).
18) The RMN Fleet Repair and Depot ships
19) Any Talbott based repair ships
20) Any Talbott shipyard
21) Any Silensia based repair ship
22) Any Silensia shipyard
23) Any Solarian fleet repair ships captured at Spindle.

The Talbot and Silensian shipyards could be counted on for low-tech construction (empty fabrication modules, habitation modules, etc.) as well as a source of trained (to a degree) space construction workers.

Note: Andermani, Havenite, Beowulfian, or other 3rd party assets are not mentioned here. We also discussed the surviving BC level yard at Allizon and the SD yard at Talbot (star system).

The Telecommuting average was a difficult #, because telecommuting would increase in the future, as it has in the last 40 years. It is not unheard of for 1 or 2 individuals to control hundreds of teleoperated systems around the globe currently. An engineer or Manager would have no need to be on the stations for their daily jobs, yet could be managing the teams there or building prototypes using the fab machines there. Multiple robotic factories could be run from a centralized location with experienced operators managing them all, with only a handful of maintenance and quality control workers on had at each. In fact a good portion of the "intellectual" workforce need not be on the stations themselves, but could live anywhere within a few light seconds. In reality, this could be 20+% of the workforce.

The 300 Million people in Manticore B space (and the 100,000s of thousands or millions in Manticore A space) All have habitats they live and work in. Remember only a couple 100 people died at Weyland, and only 2 Million or so evacuated. There are hundreds, if not thousands of habitats all over the Manticore system which could be repurposed, permanently or temporarily, for the rebuild effort.

David repeated asserted that all shipbuilding was focused at the 3 stations and no other Manticore yards exist. Almost all Heavy fabrication took place at the stations as well, but the light fabrication was spread around the system, leaving plenty of "Spaceley's Sprokets" and "Cosgove's Cogs" level fabrication existant for the rebuilding effort.

Hi nameless!

Those conversations were quite .... Heated doesn't even come close, does it? David seemed quite flustered with many of our arguments on what might be left in Manticore to build with.

In the end, I believe it came down to everything designed to build ships is gone or heavily damaged and unusable, but lots are left which can repair and service ships. Most of the Heavy industry (think Ford, GM, GE, and General Dymamic) were almostly totally wacked, but light industry (nuts and bolts manufacturers) survived better and Ore extraction and processing was untouched.

The big question was what do the 300 Million people living in Manticore B Space actually do if not manufacturing and shipbuilding - And the bar "Joke" was 10 Million doing Ore extraction, and 290 Million in the Service and adult entertainment industry supporting them, but we never really got an answer.

The important note here is lots of repair and construction assets did survive in some way, but nothing to manufacture the parts for them to construct things with, and each of the repair assets needs to be brought together in a new way for the rebuilding effort.

As for your idea about the fab modules, I have to wonder how many merchies returned to Manticore "dry". I can't believe all did, but many were probably in the same "boat" as that one ship - they needed to make their delivery to make bank and didn't want to be accused of piracy. Some of the ship from the larger lines probably didn't care (because the company would have to worry about such things, not them) and followed orders 'blindly" to return.

However, if even 10% of what you forcast is found is a Manty Bottom, that is a HUGE starting point and leg up.

namelessfly wrote:I seem to recall earlier threads where myself and others suggested that many of these resources would be available for rebuilding. Our suggestions were rejected.

To this list I would add all of the fabrication modules and machine tools that were in transit on Manticoran merchant ships when Case Lacoon I & II were implemented.

I will reinterate the calculation.

There are 2,000 systems in the Honorverse.

Perhaps 500, more recent colonies need to import fabrication modules and machine tools to establish and upgrade their industry and buy from Manticore.

On average their goal is to have perhaps 1/20 of Manticore's pre OB industrial capacity.

The intend to achieve this goal in 20 years.

Therefore; the equivalent of approximately 1/20 x 1/20 x 500 Manticore's industrial capacity is sold each year. Perhaps 1/4 of this is in transit when Case Lacoon is implemented.

Therefore; the equivalent of1/4 x 1/20 x 1/20 x 500 = 500 / 1,600s or about 1/3 of Manticore's original industrial plant resides in the holds of Manticoran Merchantmen who are being recalled by Case Lacoon II.

I say again, ONE THIRD OF MANTICORE'S INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY.

SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED.

Other assets include the industrial capacity of any SL system that Manticore occupies as a consequence of Admiral Henke going on the warpath. This includes the Meyers system and...

MESA

I suggest taking Yilden next.

I still like the idea of

DO UNTO OTHERS AS HAVEN INTENDED TO DO UNTO YELSTIN IN FLAG IN EXILE.

Seize SL systems, cut up their orbital infrastructure. Load up the fabrication modules on to Manticoran ships to haul home.

namelessfly wrote:I still like the idea of

DO UNTO OTHERS AS HAVEN INTENDED TO DO UNTO YELSTIN IN FLAG IN EXILE.

Seize SL systems, cut up their orbital infrastructure. Load up the fabrication modules on to Manticoran ships to haul home.

Amen,

- and Manticore has plenty of ships to assist in hauling that Booty home.

Hi Theemile,

That was a great post. Just thinking...one could add to your list people who recently retired or moved to planet side jobs.

Just a question about those 300,000,000 living around Manticore B...Is that from textev or one of those extra textual info dumps?

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Theemile,

That was a great post. Just thinking...one could add to your list people who recently retired or moved to planet side jobs.

Just a question about those 300,000,000 living around Manticore B...Is that from textev or one of those extra textual info dumps?

Don

Good Catch - Actually the Retired/promoted/Career Change was one of the points on the original list (I did say I was running off memory, didn't I). I don't remember the the size exactly, but I think we gave it about 5-10% of the workforce's original size. Given Prolong, that may be very low. (I recently saw a show about the RMS Titanic hosted by one of the US "Dance competition show" judges who was a Belfast shipwright in his teens, but has been a professional dancer for decades. In a Prolong society he would still be as vibrant as a 30 year old and able to switch careers back, should he wish, though his skills would be severely out of date.)

As for the 300 Million, It's in OBS, HaE, Jayne's RMN and most recently in HoS.

n7axw wrote:Hi Theemile,

That was a great post. Just thinking...one could add to your list people who recently retired or moved to planet side jobs.

Just a question about those 300,000,000 living around Manticore B...Is that from textev or one of those extra textual info dumps?

Don

The thing about recalling retirees is that most of them are probably way to old. IIRC 1st Gen Pro-long first appeared in the SKM in the late 1820's or early 1830's PD so even the youngest of those are going to be in their 90's.

As to the Mant B belter population it comes from House of Steel entry on the Unicorn belt IIRC.