Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

Actually, I know what you can do with them.

Sell them to the various League worlds which are likely to be separating from the League as the League begins to shake itself apart. If these systems don't have SDF's they are likely to end up feeling more than a bit exposed if they have neighbors who do. If they have SDF's, then the growing chaos surrounding them will probably lead to them feeling that a bit more protection is probably in order.

While this has been discussed as a bad idea when thinking about frontier worlds, League worlds will often have the means to operate and repair these vessels. And while these warships are badly out of date compared to Haven sector vessels they are probably pretty comparable with what most of the SDF's and what's left of the League are using.

Further, the GA could always offer them as security forces for systems friendly to the Alliance who are concerned about who is actually going to protect them. Here you go, one task force made to order, be the first system in your quadrant to own one.

Hi Alizon,

This has been suggested many times before, as I think you know.

Currently the 108 undamaged ex-BF SD's would be quite useful to some of the ~1200 SL members who don't have anything but LAC's, NTM the protectorates or the verge, besides those who have hyper capable warships but not an SD etc, NTM rather remunerative since selling at just construction cost could easily average around M$60 Billion each for over M$6 Trillion, a useful sum in these troubled times.

I could see Pritchart encouraging Manticore to sell them in lieu of reparations, granted its a drop in the bucket as far as the cost of the two wars with Haven, but every little bit helps.

Of course, if the GA does as you suggest, the BF reserve may not all be destroyed outright, rather many empty SD's might be boarded, powered up then taken to whoever ordered an SD or two in the neighborhood.

When the individual system governments aren't intimidated by the force available to the federal SL, as in BF's SD fleets no longer exist, what BC's the SL has left after they are savaged in the supposed commerce raiding and engagements throughout the shells, protectorates, verge and Old League core since Kingsford now knows BF can't engage the GA; will be far less able to compel (even by subtext) much obedience from all the former SL members that join Beowulf in leaving, including to such policies as favoring the 'old league' core worlds over the shells.

Then there are those 555 RMN [237] and RHN [~318] old SD's (plus the GSN's 30) that are far better than the BF junk, how much will they each go for?

Say, a M$100 Billion each?

I suspect some will be used for a while to provide a suitable scarecrow in the Talbot and ex-SC quadrants, and the less powerful members of the MA that have joined the GA, while also acting as training grounds to acquaint then with RMN equipment and operations.

L


[quote="Alizon"]Actually, I know what you can do with them.

Sell them to the various League worlds which will suddenly find a pressing need for some form of defense as the League begins to fall apart. Even worlds with SDF's are going to feel a little apprehensive as things begin to shake loose, and unlike worlds on the frontiers, League worlds which an afford them can probably also maintain them.

They could even make nice gifts to friendly aligned systems in the League to give them that added sense of security and to help bind their association with the SEM.

"House of Winton fleet sales and service" I can see it now.[/quote]

lyonheart wrote:Hi Alizon,

This has been suggested many times before, as I think you know.

Currently the 108 undamaged ex-BF SD's would be quite useful to some of the ~1200 SL members who don't have anything but LAC's, NTM the protectorates or the verge, besides those who have hyper capable warships but not an SD etc, NTM rather remunerative since selling at just construction cost could easily average around M$60 Billion each for over M$6 Trillion, a useful sum in these troubled times.

If course the worlds that only have LACs are also the ones unlikely to be able to man or maintain SDs...

I've got no issue if Manticore wants to sell or even gift the captured SDs to ex-SL systems but I suspects the ones that could come and get them, and keep them in operation, are the handful of systems that already operate some SDs.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Alizon,

This has been suggested many times before, as I think you know.

Currently the 108 undamaged ex-BF SD's would be quite useful to some of the ~1200 SL members who don't have anything but LAC's, NTM the protectorates or the verge, besides those who have hyper capable warships but not an SD etc, NTM rather remunerative since selling at just construction cost could easily average around M$60 Billion each for over M$6 Trillion, a useful sum in these troubled times.

I could see Pritchart encouraging Manticore to sell them in lieu of reparations, granted its a drop in the bucket as far as the cost of the two wars with Haven, but every little bit helps.

Of course, if the GA does as you suggest, the BF reserve may not all be destroyed outright, rather many empty SD's might be boarded, powered up then taken to whoever ordered an SD or two in the neighborhood.

When the individual system governments aren't intimidated by the force available to the federal SL, as in BF's SD fleets no longer exist, what BC's the SL has left after they are savaged in the supposed commerce raiding and engagements throughout the shells, protectorates, verge and Old League core since Kingsford now knows BF can't engage the GA; will be far less able to compel (even by subtext) much obedience from all the former SL members that join Beowulf in leaving, including to such policies as favoring the 'old league' core worlds over the shells.

Then there are those 555 RMN [237] and RHN [~318] old SD's (plus the GSN's 30) that are far better than the BF junk, how much will they each go for?

Say, a M$100 Billion each?

I suspect some will be used for a while to provide a suitable scarecrow in the Talbot and ex-SC quadrants, and the less powerful members of the MA that have joined the GA, while also acting as training grounds to acquaint then with RMN equipment and operations.

L

Alizon wrote:Actually, I know what you can do with them.

Sell them to the various League worlds which will suddenly find a pressing need for some form of defense as the League begins to fall apart. Even worlds with SDF's are going to feel a little apprehensive as things begin to shake loose, and unlike worlds on the frontiers, League worlds which an afford them can probably also maintain them.

They could even make nice gifts to friendly aligned systems in the League to give them that added sense of security and to help bind their association with the SEM.

"House of Winton fleet sales and service" I can see it now.

Actually I wasn't aware, and here I was thinking I was being brilliant.

Just a reminder though, the GA captured a fleet with all the trimmings which would include everything from fast fleet auxillaries, DD's, CL's all the way up to SD's so the GA actually has a wide variety of "modern" SLN equipment to choose from. You can also add to this any of the survivors from Adm Crandall's force which was captured intact in Talbot which will be a lot lighter in surviving SD's but still well equipped with lighter units.

Alizon wrote:Just a reminder though, the GA captured a fleet with all the trimmings which would include everything ...

All of which have been describe by RFC as "worthless as warships."

The SLN ships captured in Spindle and in Manticore are under powered, under-armed, manpower intensive, and defenseless against modern missiles. Even the smallest DDs require more trained crew than most small systems can afford.

Weird Harold wrote:

Alizon wrote:Just a reminder though, the GA captured a fleet with all the trimmings which would include everything ...

All of which have been describe by RFC as "worthless as warships."

The SLN ships captured in Spindle and in Manticore are under powered, under-armed, manpower intensive, and defenseless against modern missiles. Even the smallest DDs require more trained crew than most small systems can afford.

True enough Harold, but I'm wondering if Alizon isn't thinking about the non-warships captured....I think.

Crandall, per textev in Storm from the Shadows, had 3 Repair ships, 24 stores ships, and 2 Ammunition carriers.
Filareta (I don't have the textev with me) also had a number of those classes plus transports for over 400,000 Marines.

Now RFC never really made it clear what happened to those ships (he does tend to...misplace...things, doesn't he?... ), but if they were captured along with the warships, then I wonder if their cargos and equipment, which should be much easier to get at than through the battlesteel hulls of warships, might be of some use, espacially in the Talbott Quadrant.

Hmmmm....

Hutch wrote:True enough Harold, but I'm wondering if Alizon isn't thinking about the non-warships captured....I think.

...

Now RFC never really made it clear what happened to those ships ...

Alizon has been pretty emphatic about the need for something for a military mission -- although he has suggested adapting civilian designs.

I haven't ever considered those support ships as "lost" since Adm O'Cleary surrendered everything under her command, which would have included the support ships.

Those ships are probably closer to useful than the warships, but they are probably as obsolete for any military purpose as the warships.

Jonathan_S wrote:If course the worlds that only have LACs are also the ones unlikely to be able to man or maintain SDs...

I've got no issue if Manticore wants to sell or even gift the captured SDs to ex-SL systems but I suspects the ones that could come and get them, and keep them in operation, are the handful of systems that already operate some SDs.

When building from scratch, or near scratch, one starts with what is cheap and readily available.

Ex SLN is cheap and readily available. SLN logistics train is also cheap and readily available.

Yup, its garbage compared to GA stuff. The soon to be Ex SL worlds do not give a damn. It is better than what they have.

Have to start somewhere.

As for manning reqs, that is the easy part. Worlds with billions have no problem. At worst it is On The Job Training. What? Are they going to kidnap GA personnel to officer their ships? Get real. First they will reach out to Ex SLN ratings etc and the rest will be developed from their own population.

Tactics are not difficult.
Perfecting them are difficult.
Perfection requires time.
This requires training.
This requires ships.

Ships do not appear via fairy god mother.

J6P wrote:Yup, its garbage compared to GA stuff. The soon to be Ex SL worlds do not give a damn. It is better than what they have.

No, SLN SDs are worse than nothing. Because people with SDs will think they can fight SDs -- or at least BCs, with them -- and they can't do that. And because by the time you have trained the crew for an SD, you could have built a modern BC from scratch.

I realize a lot of people think the manpower and training issues in the Honorverse are ridiculous. Nonetheless, the Honorverse does in fact work that way. It is not the real world, and analogies to real-world warfare only go so far. In the Honorverse, it really does take two years to turn a very bright college student into a serviceable low-level enlisted man in the RMN in the middle of a shooting war. And the RMN almost certainly was working faster than almost anybody else in the Honorverse at this.

drothgery wrote:

J6P wrote:Yup, its garbage compared to GA stuff. The soon to be Ex SL worlds do not give a damn. It is better than what they have.

No, SLN SDs are worse than nothing. Because people with SDs will think they can fight SDs -- or at least BCs, with them -- and they can't do that. And because by the time you have trained the crew for an SD, you could have built a modern BC from scratch.

I realize a lot of people think the manpower and training issues in the Honorverse are ridiculous. Nonetheless, the Honorverse does in fact work that way. It is not the real world, and analogies to real-world warfare only go so far. In the Honorverse, it really does take two years to turn a very bright college student into a serviceable low-level enlisted man in the RMN in the middle of a shooting war. And the RMN almost certainly was working faster than almost anybody else in the Honorverse at this.

Ok, so what are a lot of these worlds going to do, defend themselves with really harsh language? Maybe legions of Hamsters with grav lances?

No, you are going to do what every nation does when they find themselves in an unexpectedly dangerous environment without the means to defend themselves, they are going to arm themselves. And to defend yourself you're going to need a navy.

Now if you're one of those systems with a sizable SDF then you're in a better position. But if you are a system without much more than a local police force, you have real problems.

Unless you can afford to enter into a contract with the Manties for pod-laying SD's and MDM and to send you're people to Sagamani Island, you're going to have to use what's available and that will be, whether you get it from the GA or not, SLN equipment.

I think it's important to remember that for most of these systems, the security threat isn't going to be the GA, it's going to be their better armed neighbors and rouge units of the SLN. If these systems are really lucky, they'll have a powerful SDF of their own, or they'll be find a SLN task force commander that's willing to defend them and settle down. Otherwise, if you want to go shopping for a fleet, you're options are kind of limited.