Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

Alizon wrote:
It depends. Who are you buying them to defend against?

If you're planning on having to take on any of GA member star systems, then you might as well just surrender now.

Against anyone else, you should be just fine.

Essentially every League world with an SDF is using basically the same equipment the SLN is. Oh an SDF many have a few larger more modern SD's or other equipment but nothing game changing like MDM's or super LAC's. At best some SDF's may have the kind of advantage that the RMN had over the PPRN at the beginning of the war a few decades back. Troublesome, but manageable.

And that's good news for most ex-SLN vessel purchasers because it's probably not the Haven sector fleets you really need to worry about, it's the SDF's of their neighbors, what remains of the SLN and any SLN units that have gone rouge and are looking for a nice profitable system they can protect (pillage, subdue etc ... ).

Against any of those potential foes, SLN hardware will be more than adequate.

It will be adequate for maybe a year. Everyone who is still thinking rationally will be pursuing the Technodyne missile pods which will render those SDs completely impotent against virtually any mobile force, they simply don't have the missile defenses to stand up to massed MDM fire, and those missiles are not difficult to construct in quantity.

Watch the Andermani make a fortune selling knock-off MDM pods to former Solarian SDFs as soon as the League splinters.

drothgery wrote:

J6P wrote:Yup, its garbage compared to GA stuff. The soon to be Ex SL worlds do not give a damn. It is better than what they have.

No, SLN SDs are worse than nothing. Because people with SDs will think they can fight SDs -- or at least BCs, with them -- and they can't do that. And because by the time you have trained the crew for an SD, you could have built a modern BC from scratch.

I realize a lot of people think the manpower and training issues in the Honorverse are ridiculous. Nonetheless, the Honorverse does in fact work that way. It is not the real world, and analogies to real-world warfare only go so far. In the Honorverse, it really does take two years to turn a very bright college student into a serviceable low-level enlisted man in the RMN in the middle of a shooting war. And the RMN almost certainly was working faster than almost anybody else in the Honorverse at this.

Are you for real? Say they do build their BC's from scratch in said miracle time of 2 years that not even the Manties can accomplish with the most efficient intact work force in the universe, ship design in hand, and orbital infrastructure, let alone someone without the above, but somehow got, from some fairy god mother, BC building plans with a nice fill in the color chart for rubes and nubes regarding ship building.

Where the HELL are you going to get the crews. After all you just stated said world can't get said people... Of course even some backwater named Monica had more than enough personnel to man, crew several BC/SD's just fine from their "obsolescent ships" thank you very mcuh. Even Masada did. Knock Knock, anyone home? Only a plot miracle twist saved our dear hero. Get real.

What is the fastest teaching method? ON THE JOB TRAINING. Not a stupid classroom. You must start somewhere. You start with what is fastest and cheapest. ON THE JOB TRAINING.

Of course the above is completely beside the point.

You stated: "Because people with SDs will think they can fight SDs -- or at least BCs, with them -- and they can't do that. "

1) You get the bloomdid Ex SLN SD's/BC's to make the other, not so nice neighbor, who really likes your money and real estate to think twice before attacking.

1a) If they do attack you have a better chance at survival. After all you do not have to obtain an outright victory. What you have to do is survive. A draw is perfectly acceptable. Slavery is not acceptable.

2) More importantly, if they do attack and you win, you now have the option of attacking eliminating the problem child. After all, nearly Every SL world has nothing. Those that do already have a giant step up on easy acquisitions.

Missile pods sound really swell. They really do.

S-W-E-L-L

As in give the owners a nice swelled up sense of safety to the ignorant masses planetside.

One, two, or three MAJOR problems, hey hey hey, maybe a few more!

1) Have to have fire control
2) Said fire control has to exist somewhere
3) Other side knows you have to have said fire control
4) Everyone knows pods are somehow very susceptible to EMP
5) Even ballistic missiles set to detonate at a certain time/distance will take out said PODS.
6) Even if they do not take out said pods, they send ballistic missiles against your defenseless Fire control center which was thrown together with local materials and civilian grade shielding etc.

Unless you wish to believe your favorite fairy god mother dropped anti missile defense systems plans with your magical bean missile pod designs that miraculously "everyone has in your form of the Honorverse". They did a Google search right? Or did they use Bing? Yahoo? Maybe their buddies on Instagram or Facebook sent them a link... It wouldn't say, oh, I don't know, take several years to:

a) Obtain said plans
b) Set up manufacturing
c) Set up assembly lines
d) Put the system together and
e) Test it.
f) Manufacture enough missiles to provide a credible deterrent.

In short pods, by themselves are useless except PR hounding politicos who will not spring for a real defense saving a few $$$ lining their pockets as the ignorant masses pay the price.

Yup, Pods are really S-W-E-L-L

Crown Loyalist wrote:It will be adequate for maybe a year. Everyone who is still thinking rationally will be pursuing the Technodyne missile pods which will render those SDs completely impotent against virtually any mobile force, they simply don't have the missile defenses to stand up to massed MDM fire, and those missiles are not difficult to construct in quantity.

Watch the Andermani make a fortune selling knock-off MDM pods to former Solarian SDFs as soon as the League splinters.

What said SD's can't bring these free plans pods also? Or bought Pods? At least the SD's have fire control.

Right, as if the Andies are stupid enough to sell them the ECM missiles. It is the ECM missiles that turn SLN anti missile doctrine, inert.

biochem wrote:You're assuming logic on the part of the SL member governments, not panic. These governments have spend 1000s of years as the top dog and have as one of their fundamental assumptions that they will continue to be the top dog. That world view has now been shattered. Panic is one of the most common human responses in a situation like this and many humans when in a state of panic tend to grab for the biggest hammer available (SDs) and only later think about whether or not they can lift it.

If you are a SL member state you can certainly build the equipment to service a ship whose core technology is 100-200 years old. You just need to decide to do it.

As I've said before, if you had to train people to run the equipment set from a US armored battalion that will have to fight a real live battle in 6 months (and had translators on hand), would you rather start with a 1945 Soviet veteran tank battalion or the top 500 high school grads from Chicago in 2014?

Which one do you think understands the being in the whole military part better? How about the essence of what fighting a tank is like? Do you think that is worth the fact that one understands computers better then the other?

Crown Loyalist wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Id you're talking about defending against the GA, Andermandi, or MAlign I'd say you are right.

But those ex-SLN SDs might not be totally worthless to one of the few League SDFs that already operate SDs (presumably similar the the SLN's). They've got some existing infrastructure to maintain SDs, and personnel trained to operate them. They could probably stretch that trained manpower across some more SDs faster than they could build new SDs.

Now their SDF still wouldn't be able to stop even a serious attack from the remaining SLN, but it'd be stronger the resist aggression from their neighbors, or attract nearby systems into a defensive treaty, or even perform offensive actions against other ex-league, verge, or independent star systems.

Sure, but then the question is why do they want the extra SDs. They don't need them to defend themselves against non-GA threats, they can already do that. They don't need them for commerce protection because SDs aren't any good at that unless you're going full-on convoy. They don't even need them to draw neighbors into their sphere, as one of the 30-50 odd systems which have a powerful SDF in the Solarian League they can already do that.

Maybe they might be useful for aggressive action against their neighbors, but only for a year at the most until those neighbors start rattling missile pods off their construction lines.

So yes, the systems (like Beowulf) which already can make use of SDs or BCs could potentially equip and deploy a SD... but why would they want to?

And a far scarier proposition, what if those potentially-aggressive neighbors (instead of buying another antique SD) decide to build a hundred Technodyne missile pods? All of a sudden, those SDs are as worthless as they'd be against the GA.

Lots of good stuff here.

First, you're making the assumption that all major League worlds have powerful SDF's. What makes you think that?

Presumably SDF's are paid for via taxpayer dollars and if you're going to spend them, you're going to have to justify them. In a League which has been at peace for centuries. How many SDF's are out there where the governments can justify having squadrons of SD's of any type. How about Battlecruisers, who exactly are you going to use them to defend yourself against? Heavy Cruisers? How about Light Cruisers?

Fleets are expensive to build and operate. So really, how many systems can actually justify the expense when I'm sure there are any number of other things that a systems politicians would love to spend those dollars on.

What you are going to have is a few major worlds with powerful SDF's. Maybe they're like Beowulf sitting on a valuable wormhole where the other side might suddenly be occupied by an aggressive and not so friendly power. Maybe there is another reason that's just as compelling but there can't be many of them, not with the SLN out there (unless you're trying to defend against them, in which case you really need a BIG SDF).

So how many significant League worlds really are going to have all the warm fuzzies when they consider their defense situation ... really.

And, just out of curiosity, where are your neighbors in the economic chaos that is likely to enfold the League are you going to find your neighbors designing and then building their own SD(P)'s anytime within the foreseeable future. And Technodyne ... in the collapse of the League, how will their operations be impacted, how or they going to get their missile pods into your neighbors hands and what's to keep you from buying their product too?

I mean, did the mere existence of pods make older style SD's obsolete in the Haven sector? No, they did not. SD's just started fracturing their pods into battle, upped their ability to defend themselves from missile attack and kept on fighting. Even the pod-layers didn't strike the older SD's out of the fight. Instead they developed flat packs where more could be towed inside the wedge. What the couldn't do or at least didn't do was increase their fire control capability.

So, having those pods churn off someone else's line isn't the concern as long as I have them churning off my lines as well.

I find this logic fascinating since, if this plays out like the Alignment wants it to, the wars and conflicts which break the League fundamentally apart will likely be fought with, you guessed it, SLN gear.

One might think that, given the likely situation and given the fact that there are going to be a number of people seeing it coming, someone with oh ... 600+ SLN SD's and numerous other lesser vessels might find someone willing to take a few off their hands. But that's just me.

J6P wrote:1) Have to have fire control
2) Said fire control has to exist somewhere
3) Other side knows you have to have said fire control
4) Everyone knows pods are somehow very susceptible to EMP
5) Even ballistic missiles set to detonate at a certain time/distance will take out said PODS.
6) Even if they do not take out said pods, they send ballistic missiles against your defenseless Fire control center which was thrown together with local materials and civilian grade shielding etc.

System defense pods do need fire control (a la Mycroft or Moriarty) and Pods are susceptible to proximity kills. They can also decimate an attacking fleet as was demonstrated to Honor at Solon.

When combined with low-cost LACs, they can provide enough toughness to dissuade aggressors and send them looking for easier conquests.

The problem for most SL systems is that they are used to "paying" someone else to protect them. The GA can offer to replace the SLN and provide a turnkey Pod/LAC system defense setup similar to Beowulf is installing or they've installed for Manticore Alliance members. Or they can refer systems to the Andermani or Erewhonese for comparable systems. Technodyne could probably make a decent showing in the system defense market, but they'd probably spend more than they make trying to break the security protocols on GA tech.

SL systems do not have LAC's worth mentioning as defensive units. Besides, still have to miraculously find said ships for the anti missile role, otherwise your pods just vanished due to EMP soft kills.

J6P wrote:SL systems do not have LAC's worth mentioning as defensive units.

They do if the GA supplies them as part of a system defense package.

You're very dismissive of the pod/LAC combination for system defense, but the SEM and RHN, and members of the Manticoran Alliance seem to think it is a cost-effective solution for routine challenges.

No system defense based on purely Solarian technology is going to be adequate to fend off a GA task force, but even that poor standard is sufficient for customs inspection and pirate suppression.

No one is worried about stopping GA task forces. Except a few MALIGN folks. Everyone else already knows anything they buy 2nd hand will be useless if the GA comes knocking.

No one is worried about run of the mill pirates. After all they already have CL, DD, LAC's.

Neither of which are the subject of this discussion.
Nice try at purposefully changing the topic.