Guns, Guns Guns

Sorry, but I can't quite understand why non-Americans would want to see American citizens disarmed.

If I may twist your tails a bit, perhaps it's a case of sour grapes?

Seriously though, you would think that with all the gun owners here, (perhaps 25-50% of the population) there would be a lot more armed violence, which is not the case in my experience. The vast, vast majority of gun owners here are responsible owners. Why should a very small criminal minority be the cause of the loss of the majority's rights?

Despite inflation, my opinion is still worth 2 cents.

Anyone reading the last few posts by a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States that we should elect some dictatorial fxxxtard even further to the left and even more authoritarian that President Obama to transform the US into their vision of utopia should have no problem understanding my hostility towards foreigners. They base their ignorant, bigoted opinions on a warped image of what the presume that the US is without taking the time to do any actual research on the facts. If they would do their research, they would understand that the US homicide rate is not nearly as high as they imagine it is and that the vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans or illegal immigrants who are a culture unto themselves.

What the US needs is not some socialist tyrant to the left of Obama who will transform the US into a castrated culture like Europe but a right wing government that would deport all of the illegal aliens and repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe where they can rob, rape and kill to their hearts' content.

namelessfly wrote:Anyone reading the last few posts by a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States that we should elect some dictatorial fxxxtard even further to the left and even more authoritarian that President Obama to transform the US into their vision of utopia should have no problem understanding my hostility towards foreigners. They base their ignorant, bigoted opinions on a warped image of what the presume that the US is without taking the time to do any actual research on the facts. If they would do their research, they would understand that the US homicide rate is not nearly as high as they imagine it is and that the vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans or illegal immigrants who are a culture unto themselves.

What the US needs is not some socialist tyrant to the left of Obama who will transform the US into a castrated culture like Europe but a right wing government that would deport all of the illegal aliens and repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe where they can rob, rape and kill to their hearts' content.

Do you post here to discuss issues, or are you just interested in talking to an echo chamber? Because, last I checked, posting in this forum does not require acceptance of and belief in the conservative american mindset that you are so fanatical about.

Yes, I post to discuss issues. I don't expect an echo chamber. However; it pisses me off that a bunch of people from foreign countries who are so profoundly ignorant of realities in the US would be arrogant enough to suggest that the US needs to suspend not just the Second Amendment but the entire structure of it's Constitution to impose their vision of a hopliphobic utopia.

The E wrote:

namelessfly wrote:Anyone reading the last few posts by a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States that we should elect some dictatorial fxxxtard even further to the left and even more authoritarian that President Obama to transform the US into their vision of utopia should have no problem understanding my hostility towards foreigners. They base their ignorant, bigoted opinions on a warped image of what the presume that the US is without taking the time to do any actual research on the facts. If they would do their research, they would understand that the US homicide rate is not nearly as high as they imagine it is and that the vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans or illegal immigrants who are a culture unto themselves.

What the US needs is not some socialist tyrant to the left of Obama who will transform the US into a castrated culture like Europe but a right wing government that would deport all of the illegal aliens and repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe where they can rob, rape and kill to their hearts' content.

Do you post here to discuss issues, or are you just interested in talking to an echo chamber? Because, last I checked, posting in this forum does not require acceptance of and belief in the conservative american mindset that you are so fanatical about.

I have actually posted figures here before, showing the actual disparity between gun related crimes amongst first world countries with different gun control lawas, and also gun murder and injury rates, and IIRC the US had a statistically significant higher rate of crimes and gun death than other countries such as the UK, OZ and NZ. Yes, the rest of us had higher melee weapon usage, but still less than thew disparity between the rate and the US, suggesting guns increase armed assault, due to people being more willing to commit crimes when not in arms reach of their victim.

Yes the vast majority may be responsible, but your higher percentage gives a much higher criminal total, antd the easy access to guns meant that your responsible to criminal ratio was lower than elsewhere, further complicating your situation.

And even disregarding the criminals, you still have the problems of the people who see guns as a part of them, to the point that when starbucks asks them not to bring guns in visibly, they protest this by bringing in combat slung assault rifles, and acting so stupid even the NRA apologises for them. They may not be criminals, but giving someone that inconsiderate a gun is just asking for trouble in the future.

pushmar wrote:Sorry, but I can't quite understand why non-Americans would want to see American citizens disarmed.

If I may twist your tails a bit, perhaps it's a case of sour grapes?

Seriously though, you would think that with all the gun owners here, (perhaps 25-50% of the population) there would be a lot more armed violence, which is not the case in my experience. The vast, vast majority of gun owners here are responsible owners. Why should a very small criminal minority be the cause of the loss of the majority's rights?

Despite inflation, my opinion is still worth 2 cents.

I've done the research before nameless, and you ignored it.

It may not be as high as some people suggest, but I showed you that it was higher than other first world countries, and that gun crimes including murder made up a statistically significant change in rates of crime compared to elsewhere.

I also showed you that NZ has a higher rate of crime by our version of african americans, and you ignored that as well.


Obama is rightwing to the rest of the world, so I dont know what you are complaining about. Step outside the US sometime, and you'll realise how lucky you are to have such a right wing leader.

namelessfly wrote:Anyone reading the last few posts by a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States that we should elect some dictatorial fxxxtard even further to the left and even more authoritarian that President Obama to transform the US into their vision of utopia should have no problem understanding my hostility towards foreigners. They base their ignorant, bigoted opinions on a warped image of what the presume that the US is without taking the time to do any actual research on the facts. If they would do their research, they would understand that the US homicide rate is not nearly as high as they imagine it is and that the vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans or illegal immigrants who are a culture unto themselves.

What the US needs is not some socialist tyrant to the left of Obama who will transform the US into a castrated culture like Europe but a right wing government that would deport all of the illegal aliens and repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe where they can rob, rape and kill to their hearts' content.

An Ancient Roman saying, apt about our governments today. The militarization of our police, the increasing frequency of the use of deadly force against unarmed civilians, no knock warrants, innocent families held at gun point while the police ransack the wrong house, Police shield laws that give citizens no right to legally redress wrongs against the perpetrators, and yet some still say what me worry?

Poker

Spacekiwi wrote:You want people to protect stores? Maybe allow tasers or other non lethal defense methods to be used by the general public, and try and reduce your guns per person level. Guns as defense only really work when both the assailant and the victim are rational. if the attacker or victim is acting irrationally around the gun, the situation will only end worse off for the gun, not the better.

The thing is, a mob won't necessarily be stopped by tasers and clubs. Tasers impact one person at a time and the ones that don't shoot out, require the user to get in hand to hand range, like club users. They can also be overrun fairly easily by a good sized mob (often like a mob can overrun a police line with shields and clubs). But showing guns (pistols, rifles and/or shotguns) can make a mob rethink their looting decisions because a gun can kill -at range-. The users don't have to be in hand to hand combat range to be hurt or worse. That's why guns make an effective deterrent. Because the rioter has to decide if he/she really wants to risk being shot or killed for those rolls of toilet paper and food, or those clothes/electronics. If the Walmart had had gun armed employees outside, it would not have been looted.

The E wrote:Guns do not help in the endeavour to keep a society together. You cannot build a part of your culture on the belief that owning tools made to kill others is a fundamental and inalienable right, and expect everyone to be sane about it.

Guns are also a popular form of recreation and used for hunting. The majority of guns are -not- used in killing humans, but for more mundane purposes such as the aforementioned hunting or recreational shooting, or the gun might be a valuable piece of history and be on display. To think that guns are only for killing humans is missing how the vast majority of gun owners, who are responsible ones, use their guns.

Obama is rightwing to the rest of the world, so I dont know what you are complaining about. Step outside the US sometime, and you'll realise how lucky you are to have such a right wing leader.

To the US, he is left wing though and the US view is what counts here. At least half the country is NOT glad he is President and would have preferred to have seen him lose both elections. He seems to be burning his bridges with the half that did vote for him too, so he's not exactly a popular leader in the US anymore.

namelessfly wrote:Yes, I post to discuss issues. I don't expect an echo chamber. However; it pisses me off that a bunch of people from foreign countries who are so profoundly ignorant of realities in the US would be arrogant enough to suggest that the US needs to suspend not just the Second Amendment but the entire structure of it's Constitution to impose their vision of a hopliphobic utopia.

Let me ask you a question then.

You, and people like you, hold the opinion that the benefits of unrestricted gun ownership far outweigh the negatives. Why is that? What gives you the conviction that lets you accept statistical facts like the high number of incidents in which people were wounded or killed, both intentionally and accidentally?

Personally, I don't care what you guys end up doing with your country. If you allow largely unrestricted gun ownership, then there are consequences to that, which you have to live with. But, I gotta ask: Why is it that anyone not willing to bear those consequences, and who decides for him- or herself that maybe, just maybe, the benefits of gun ownership do not outweigh the negatives, is autonatically anti-american? Why are you only able to react to criticism and outside views with scorn and namecalling?

I didn't see any sign of "a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States", just several people in a discussion suggesting calmly without implied swearing that some strategies might be considered. No dictation or rancour involved.

The rest of the world does consider Obama to be somewhat to the "normal view" right, and somewhat ineffective regarding US domestic policy as he is constrained by Congress. Not a leftish dictator at all.

Now for some background, in Australia at present there is some debate about section 18C of our Racial Discrimination act. This prohibits racial vilification. A leading right wing shock jock (oxymoron re a moron) complained to his friend (our conservative PM Abbott) because he was fined under this act for suggesting that some of our indigenous citizens who "looked white" shouldn't receive additional assistance. Abbott floated watering down that part of the act, and the backlash from all sections of the community including conservative politicians was so extreme that he backed off. What Fly has said here regarding "repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe" and "vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans " would ensure that he would receive free board and lodging if published here. Not acceptable in a modern educated civilised society.

namelessfly wrote:Anyone reading the last few posts by a bunch of fxxxing foreigners presuming to dictate to the United States that we should elect some dictatorial fxxxtard even further to the left and even more authoritarian that President Obama to transform the US into their vision of utopia should have no problem understanding my hostility towards foreigners. They base their ignorant, bigoted opinions on a warped image of what the presume that the US is without taking the time to do any actual research on the facts. If they would do their research, they would understand that the US homicide rate is not nearly as high as they imagine it is and that the vast majority of homicides and other violent crimes in the US are committed by either a particular segment of African-Americans or illegal immigrants who are a culture unto themselves.

What the US needs is not some socialist tyrant to the left of Obama who will transform the US into a castrated culture like Europe but a right wing government that would deport all of the illegal aliens and repatriate all of the African-Americans back to Africa or better yet, ship them off to Europe where they can rob, rape and kill to their hearts' content.