The Grand Alliance Grand Attack

stewart wrote:

Hutch wrote:Alrighty. Before we get bogged down on the SLN SD’s again (almost makes me yearn for the days of TWTSNBN), let me try and divert the masses with how I see the Grand Alliance use of forces (what the hey, Hutch, don’t shoot small….)

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General comment --
As others here have noted, any screening elements would depend on the capabilities of the capital ships.
RMN and GSN ships can deploy Ghostrider Drones to provide the forward eyes that DD's and FF's do in our current navies; in the Honorverse, the RHN does not have (yet) Ghostrider, so RHN ships will need either more smallboys or be part of a mixed fleet with GSN or RMN.

Both Lester and Mike Henke have used DD's and CL's as forward contacts during and after a battle, keeping the long-range missile combatants outside opponent's effective range to "keep the other guys honest"

In short, any deployable combatant fleet will need capable small escorts; the RMN / GSN LAC's can provide a good missile defense, but DD's, CL's and the non-Mk16 CA's will provide the boarding party role.

-- Stewart

*nods* Also there is no guarantee that SDs will not need screening units in the future. for now, they really don't, but the RMN and RHN is preparing combat doctrine against foes that -can- through missile salvos as far and accurately as the RMN can. In that case they will definitely need every bit of Cm they have. the Ghost Riders and other drones are good, but they are not equipped with CMs nor can they defend themselves that well when detected. The cruisers and DDs can, if need be, also be used to deliver a message to the RMN command if things to turn south for a RMN/RHN force. Drones can't hyper out.

Right now the RMN/RHN/GSN have technological superiority. For now, but they know that there is no guarantee that they will keep the technological edge. If the SL manages to hold together, the RMN,GSN, RHN and MAlign knows that the SLN is -very- capable of closing that edge with frightening speed. Hence the need to break up the SL as fast as they reasonably can before that combat edge vanishes like smoke. As it is, the RMN/RHN is better off developing a combat strategy that keeps all of its ships in the line and keeping the option of the lighter ships in as screening units.

All of this is assuming they can spare them. If the SLN commerce raiding is effective, the RMN/GSN is going to need most of the lighter ships doing escort duty/patrol duty in the Silesia Confederacy/Talbot Quadrant areas rather than hanging around the strike fleets of the RMN. Which is the intention of the SLN (why do people call it the ISLN? It's the Solarian League Navy. Where does the I come from?)

Relax wrote:Quick Post then will give a more thorough post later.

SDP are irrelevant really. DD/CA/BC + Ammo Freighters are more than enough to eliminate the ISLN. Ammo Freighters carry more pods than SD'Ps. just that minor problem of missile supply. Assuming missile supply from RHN, then the only hurdle are distribution logistics and well, I have heard a bird in my ear, mention there are several thousand Manticoran freighters twiddling their thumbs...

There are what? approx 100-150 BCP/BCL that have keyhole, not that this is even needed. Each is effectively equivalent to an SD'P for force projection or home defense.

If they wanted, there shouldn't be an operational ISLN SD or BC left in SL space 6 months from Filaretta's attack.

Most of the crews of those merchantmen are in the RMN as reservists. If the RMN sends them back to re-crew the merchies, they will lose a -lot- of the crews needed for the warships, and at a time they need those warships manned.

If the RMN did as you say with the SLN ships, they would basically be emptying their entire missile stockpile. something they literally cannot afford to do with the Malign around. It would also stand a very good chance of terrorising the entire SL as the RMN has just literally blown away -every- warship capable of fighting off irate attacks. Basically, the RMN will have removed the SL systems of their ability to protect themselves.

Zakharra wrote:

Relax wrote:SDP are irrelevant really. DD/CA/BC + Ammo Freighters are more than enough to eliminate the ISLN. Ammo Freighters carry more pods than SD'Ps. just that minor problem of missile supply. Assuming missile supply from RHN, then the only hurdle are distribution logistics and well, I have heard a bird in my ear, mention there are several thousand Manticoran freighters twiddling their thumbs...

If they wanted, there shouldn't be an operational ISLN SD or BC left in SL space 6 months from Filaretta's attack.

Most of the crews of those merchantmen are in the RMN as reservists. If the RMN sends them back to re-crew the merchies, they will lose a -lot- of the crews needed for the warships, and at a time they need those warships manned.

If the RMN did as you say with the SLN ships, they would basically be emptying their entire missile stockpile. something they literally cannot afford to do with the Malign around. It would also stand a very good chance of terrorising the entire SL as the RMN has just literally blown away -every- warship capable of fighting off irate attacks. Basically, the RMN will have removed the SL systems of their ability to protect themselves.

Um dude, one read the bolded RED. and two, the merchies already have crews... Doesn't take a reservist to hit the "dump cargo hold 1" button. They are all already IN the MMM so technically, they can ALL be called to duty. When you have 60Mkm range advantage, you don't even need the acceleration advantage.

As DW has pointed out, at least 75% of all SL systems do not have anything larger than a DD and LAC. Their "defense" is already "blown away." They don't have any by and large. If they have 2500 active SD's, how many active CA, CL, DD do they have that are NOT blown away? Hmm...

Hutch it is late. Will hopefully get a cognizant post regarding the original point tomorrow.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not saying that a fleet wouldn't have attached DDs and Cruisers, I'm simply questioning whether any of the first tier navies still doctrinally call for anywhere near as many as they did before the 1st war. (And then we cycle back to the original question about the SLN and who knows what they'd desire or settle for in the way of a screen)

I'm pretty sure the RMN and RHN don't have the traditional light unit screen anymore, between vastly longer missile ranges, the decisive role of missile combat, FTL communications with recon drones, and effective LAC's. They'll still have destroyers and light cruisers attached for where a hyper-capable unit is needed - typically passing messages between hyperspace and normal space, or being the forward scout while cruising in hyper, scouting systems prior to fleet emergence, etc. - but they don't need anything like the old numbers of such units with a powerful wall. When it comes to the combat screen, LAC's are doing the job, even the low-endurance Havenite ones; when it comes to in-system recon, drones are.

There aren't infinite light units, and there are so many demands on them for remote employment now. I'm sure that will mean GA walls of battle with far fewer hyper-capable screening units than their admirals would like, or would have considered remotely acceptable twenty years ago. But this isn't twenty years ago, and needs must when the devil drives anyway.

Just got back and haven't read all the posts, so if I am repeating someone else, apologies.


Weird Harold wrote:

With all of the tasks for smaller ships, like commerce protection, supporting verge rebellions, dealing with Frontier Fleet, anti-pirate patrols in Talbot and Silesia, picketing Wormholes, etc, where are you going to find sufficient screening elements for all of your SD Squadrons?

I would argue that between stealth RD and CLAC's, the need for screening elements(CA/CL/DD) for the wall hasbeen drastically reduced. But I do agree, those smaller units will being putting some very serious time on thier nodes.

Wierd Harold wrote:

For that matter, aren't you going to need a few SDs for a Show of Force in OFS Sector Capitols and other strong-points in the Verge and Shell systems, or to ferry and support diplomatic missions?

Which is why I am leaving nealy 60% of the available forces home. They are going to be very busy themselves. And I think for Verge and Shell, a Division of BC's (given what we have seen of FF dispersals) is likely to be convincing enough.

crewdude48 wrote:While I don't disagree with anything you have said, I would like to point out one thing. 144 Grayson or Republican wallers would be 18 squadrons, but 144 Manticoran wallers are 24 squadrons.

*Invokes the spell for handwavium*

Oh, that was agreed to during the peace conference that Manticore would go back to 8-ship squadrons (seriously, I thought they did that in AAC anyway..)

Relax wrote:Hutch it is late. Will hopefully get a cognizant post regarding the original point tomorrow.

No problem. I often post while awake (but not always.... )

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not saying that a fleet wouldn't have attached DDs and Cruisers, I'm simply questioning whether any of the first tier navies still doctrinally call for anywhere near as many as they did before the 1st war. (And then we cycle back to the original question about the SLN and who knows what they'd desire or settle for in the way of a screen)

I'm pretty sure the RMN and RHN don't have the traditional light unit screen anymore, between vastly longer missile ranges, the decisive role of missile combat, FTL communications with recon drones, and effective LAC's. They'll still have destroyers and light cruisers attached for where a hyper-capable unit is needed - typically passing messages between hyperspace and normal space, or being the forward scout while cruising in hyper, scouting systems prior to fleet emergence, etc. - but they don't need anything like the old numbers of such units with a powerful wall. When it comes to the combat screen, LAC's are doing the job, even the low-endurance Havenite ones; when it comes to in-system recon, drones are.

There aren't infinite light units, and there are so many demands on them for remote employment now. I'm sure that will mean GA walls of battle with far fewer hyper-capable screening units than their admirals would like, or would have considered remotely acceptable twenty years ago. But this isn't twenty years ago, and needs must when the devil drives anyway.

Johnathan/Jeff, that was my thought, too (such as they were). One DD carrying eight RD's can hyper in at distance from a system, release a drone on a parabolic curve into the system and hyper out to it's next destination. A few weeks later they (or a follow-up ship)pickup the drone on it's way out of the system and download the information.

As for fleet defense, the CLAC/LAC doctrine has replaced to a great extent the need for smaller ships to provide missile defense (like First Hancock). And in pod-based combat, with the number of missiles that can be launched, ships smaller than SD's really have no business being anywhere nearby.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Relax wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Relax"
SDP are irrelevant really. DD/CA/BC + Ammo Freighters are more than enough to eliminate the ISLN. Ammo Freighters carry more pods than SD'Ps. just that minor problem of missile supply. Assuming missile supply from RHN, then the only hurdle are distribution logistics and well, I have heard a bird in my ear, mention there are several thousand Manticoran freighters twiddling their thumbs...

If they wanted, there shouldn't be an operational ISLN SD or BC left in SL space 6 months from Filaretta's attack. quote

Most of the crews of those merchantmen are in the RMN as reservists. If the RMN sends them back to re-crew the merchies, they will lose a -lot- of the crews needed for the warships, and at a time they need those warships manned.

If the RMN did as you say with the SLN ships, they would basically be emptying their entire missile stockpile. something they literally cannot afford to do with the Malign around. It would also stand a very good chance of terrorising the entire SL as the RMN has just literally blown away -every- warship capable of fighting off irate attacks. Basically, the RMN will have removed the SL systems of their ability to protect themselves.

Um dude, one read the bolded RED. and two, the merchies already have crews... Doesn't take a reservist to hit the "dump cargo hold 1" button. They are all already IN the MMM so technically, they can ALL be called to duty. When you have 60Mkm range advantage, you don't even need the acceleration advantage.

As DW has pointed out, at least 75% of all SL systems do not have anything larger than a DD and LAC. Their "defense" is already "blown away." They don't have any by and large. If they have 2500 active SD's, how many active CA, CL, DD do they have that are NOT blown away? Hmm...

there are several slight problems with that. The RHN can't make the Apollo missiles, or any missiles yet. No one can at the moment. The missiles the RMN have are literally the only ones they have for about another half year. And it looks like Beowulf is going to be the RMN supplier before the SEM is able to get its own industrial facilities rebuilt.

Why Beowulf you might ask? Simply this, the RH isn't capable of making the missiles the RMN can use. Beowulf is fully technologically capable with Manticore's technology and only needed the facilities built to start generating the missiles. And since their industrial facilities haven't been blown out of space like Manticore's was, they have the immediate capacity to build the missile factories much faster than Manticore can build its own. Haven technology is still several generations behind Manticore's in terms of efficiency and miniaturization technology. Haven literally cannot make missiles the RMN can use (they are too long and big and use different components. That's why it was agreed that the RHN should be the one to use a lot of its missiles on the Solly fleet attacking Manticore.

As for the merchantmen; from At All Costs, it sounds like a good amount of the officers and crews of those merchant ships are now in the RMN as officers and enlisted. I seriously doubt SEM law would allow -any- merchant vessel to ship out with less than a full crew, so your 'fly up and hit the cargo bay doors and dump' idea isn't necessarily doable. It's a little hard to do when a good portion of your merchant marine crews are busy manning warships. A lot of the MMM ships will also already be out on runs in the Silesian Confederacy (seriously, what is that area called now that the Confederacy has been split up?), Talbot and the Republic of Haven, earning much needed currency for the ship owners and not incidentally, for the SEM as they desperately need to keep their economy pumping along. Every merchant ship hauling supplies for the RMN isn't a ship out earning money. The RMN is going to have to decide if it is alright to release those crews back to the merchantmen or keep them for when the shooting starts again, as it will start up again when the RMN starts forcibly dismantling the SL. In this the RMN is likely to play it conservatively and keep as many warships manned and ready as it can.

Zakharra wrote:The RHN can't make the Apollo missiles, or any missiles yet.

What more needs said after that whopper. Yup, BOMA 1 never happened...

I am afraid to rap you upside the head, it might implode.

PS. DW is the one who had RHN freighters dumping pods in their civil war. Ya might have noticed but all those MMM ships going to the SL are sitting in Manticoran space at the moment... The verge is already saturated by MMM hulls on their scheduled routes as the MMM per DW already dominate the verge. Adding more ships to routes already saturated isn't helping anyone.