Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

fallsfromtrees wrote:Sometimes the best thing to do is just let it go. These things are pretty much worthless - with 670 posts, I still haven't seen a good suggestion other than target practice. Time to extract whatever might be useful from them (gourmand victuals from the Captain quarters, etc), and then use them for target practice, or drop them into the nearest sun, or convert one of them into a museum to show how you don't want to design a modern warship or something.

Spacekiwi wrote:The problem is, DW has obliquely suggested that he may have a use for the ships, although it being definitely not a warship position. We know there are heaps of cons to pretty much every idea, but we need to figure out which one has the least problems given the material situation post oyster bay, and as to how the GA could extract any use from them at all, as most ideas require a slip for refit. So the question then is: what does DW consider a respectable tradeoff for using these ships?

The only possible use that I can think of that would make use of some the SDs without any refits (minimizing the political fallout implications, although there would probably be some) is to use them as blocking ships against Eridani incidents. With minimal crews, position the ex-SLN SDs so that their wedges cover a planet from conventional incoming missiles that have the planet either as a deliberate target, or against end-of-run missiles that miss their primary targets and end up with the planet in the way.

And the only time and place I could see this being possibly pulled off is to use them (just the SDs captured from Filareta, Crandall's would take too long to reposition) at Beowulf (the only SDF that the Grand Alliance could trust with the ex-SLN SDs that could probably man them without extensive retraining--and has the manpower to do so) from now until either Mycroft is up and running, or until the plebiscite goes through successfully and the Grand Alliance can position modern SDs in orbit around the planet. After that they can be used for target practice.

Vince wrote:The only possible use that I can think of that would make use of some the SDs without any refits (minimizing the political fallout implications, although there would probably be some) is to use them as blocking ships against Eridani incidents. With minimal crews, position the ex-SLN SDs so that their wedges cover a planet from conventional incoming missiles that have the planet either as a deliberate target, or against end-of-run missiles that miss their primary targets and end up with the planet in the way.

And the only time and place I could see this being possibly pulled off is to use them (just the SDs captured from Filareta, Crandall's would take too long to reposition) at Beowulf (the only SDF that the Grand Alliance could trust with the ex-SLN SDs that could probably man them without extensive retraining--and has the manpower to do so) from now until either Mycroft is up and running, or until the plebiscite goes through successfully and the Grand Alliance can position modern SDs in orbit around the planet. After that they can be used for target practice.

They aren't fast enough or agile enough to do that effectively. You don't have enough SDs to completely surround a planet with wedges. Ships protecting a planet from errant missiles or debris need to maneuver quickly. That's why Manticore uses agile tug boats for this purpose.

[edit]Correction--you do technically have enough ships. But you don't have enough crew to man 30,000+ man-power intensive SLN superdreadnoughts just for the purpose of having them sit in orbit ready for years waiting to turn on their wedges in case of an emergency. That's why you want to use a smaller number of agile ships.[/edit]

SWM wrote:That's why Manticore uses agile tug boats for this purpose.

Tugs with small crews; crews on the order of one-fiftieth of the crew required to man a SLN SD enough to power up the wedge.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:That's why Manticore uses agile tug boats for this purpose.

Tugs with small crews; crews on the order of one-fiftieth of the crew required to man a SLN SD enough to power up the wedge.

For that matter, that's a secondary or tertiary use of the tugs. Mostly they're there for secure movement of ships to and from the stations. For a dedicated wedge defense, you'd likely be better off still with small, automated platforms: trivial upkeep; can be left near their stations for long, long periods; can maneuver very quickly, without worries about squishy crews, to get to needed spots; and are more freely disposable in case of dangerous things coming in with substantial wedges of their own.

SWM wrote:

Vince wrote:The only possible use that I can think of that would make use of some the SDs without any refits (minimizing the political fallout implications, although there would probably be some) is to use them as blocking ships against Eridani incidents. With minimal crews, position the ex-SLN SDs so that their wedges cover a planet from conventional incoming missiles that have the planet either as a deliberate target, or against end-of-run missiles that miss their primary targets and end up with the planet in the way.

And the only time and place I could see this being possibly pulled off is to use them (just the SDs captured from Filareta, Crandall's would take too long to reposition) at Beowulf (the only SDF that the Grand Alliance could trust with the ex-SLN SDs that could probably man them without extensive retraining--and has the manpower to do so) from now until either Mycroft is up and running, or until the plebiscite goes through successfully and the Grand Alliance can position modern SDs in orbit around the planet. After that they can be used for target practice.

They aren't fast enough or agile enough to do that effectively. You don't have enough SDs to completely surround a planet with wedges. Ships protecting a planet from errant missiles or debris need to maneuver quickly. That's why Manticore uses agile tug boats for this purpose.

[edit]Correction--you do technically have enough ships. But you don't have enough crew to man 30,000+ man-power intensive SLN superdreadnoughts just for the purpose of having them sit in orbit ready for years waiting to turn on their wedges in case of an emergency. That's why you want to use a smaller number of agile ships.[/edit]

I think you seem to have overlooked some points that I made.

First, it would use only the SLN SDs that were captured by Manticore at the Battle of Manticore (Filareta), as the ones captured by Manticore at the Battle of Spindle (Crandall) would take to long to reposition. (I'm thinking of just the ones that surrendered without taking any damage at all, IIRC there were about 60 that fell into this category.)

Second, the ex-SLN SDs would be on absolute minimal crew levels, with only just enough personnel to raise the wedge and navigate the ship (reposition in orbit along a threat axis, and turn the wedge to face that axis) to prevent a (either errant or deliberately targeted) missile from smacking the planet Beowulf. The ships would not be expected to fight--that mission goes to the Beowulf System Defense Forces SDs.

Third, it would be strictly a temporary measure, from now until either Mycroft is up and running, or the plebiscite goes through and the Grand Alliance can put modern SDPs in orbit around Beowulf, whichever comes first. After that, dispose of the ex-SLN SDs properly by using them either for target practice, or let the Beowulf breakers strip them for parts and reclaim what can't be used or salvaged for raw materials.

Vince wrote:Second, the ex-SLN SDs would be on absolute minimal crew levels, with only just enough personnel to raise the wedge and navigate the ship ...

The problem is that "absolute minimal crew levels" are higher than manning more modern ships because of the lack of automation and archaic systems. In past discussions, we settled on 750-1000 trained people to man a SLN SD for ferry or station-keeping, IIRC.

Weird Harold wrote:

Vince wrote:Second, the ex-SLN SDs would be on absolute minimal crew levels, with only just enough personnel to raise the wedge and navigate the ship ...

The problem is that "absolute minimal crew levels" are higher than manning more modern ships because of the lack of automation and archaic systems. In past discussions, we settled on 750-1000 trained people to man a SLN SD for ferry or station-keeping, IIRC.

Say, any estimate on how many people would be required for very basic maneuver when many of the crew are getting their training on that occasion? I wonder about the interim, temporary, because-they-are-right-here-already use of the captures for training purposes, both in Spindle and Manticore. (And in this case, not expecting much of any use of then except as immediately available training vehicles.)

SWM wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:The problem is, DW has obliquely suggested that he may have a use for the ships, although it being definitely not a warship position. We know there are heaps of cons to pretty much every idea, but we need to figure out which one has the least problems given the material situation post oyster bay, and as to how the GA could extract any use from them at all, as most ideas require a slip for refit. So the question then is: what does DW consider a respectable tradeoff for using these ships?

You interpret DW as suggesting that he may have a use for the ships. Many of the rest of us interpret him as saying pretty clearly that this is a dead topic. [shrug]

I think you are right about David.


Howver the topic dies only when there is no one left to discuss it. My own prediction about that is that its half life is longer than uranium.

Besides... not much else going on to talk about. So why not ruminate about Solly SDs...

Don

JeffEngel wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The problem is that "absolute minimal crew levels" are higher than manning more modern ships because of the lack of automation and archaic systems. In past discussions, we settled on 750-1000 trained people to man a SLN SD for ferry or station-keeping, IIRC.

Say, any estimate on how many people would be required for very basic maneuver when many of the crew are getting their training on that occasion? I wonder about the interim, temporary, because-they-are-right-here-already use of the captures for training purposes, both in Spindle and Manticore. (And in this case, not expecting much of any use of then except as immediately available training vehicles.)

Those absolute minimum crew levels would be even higher than the number we hypothesized for stationkeeping an SLN SD. You would still need the minimum number of trained people, plus trainers and trainees. And I seem to remember we settled on a higher number, around 1000-2000.

JeffEngel wrote:... you'd likely be better off still with small, automated platforms: trivial upkeep; can be left near their stations for long, long periods; can maneuver very quickly, without worries about squishy crews, to get to needed spots; and are more freely disposable in case of dangerous things coming in with substantial wedges of their own.

maybe a use for all those obsolete Soly SD drives laying around.