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Future Point Defense Options

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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:18 pm

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--snipping--
Theemile wrote:Sharkhunter, Relax is pointing out that the Honorverse doesn't seem to use many of the Electrical Engineering and computer technologies developed over the last 50 years. Simple things like IP protocols via WiFi mean one radio transmitter can send specialized, separate data to dozens if not hundreds of receivers. Cellular technologies allow secure, encrypted signals to bounce from 1 central transmitter to the next. Some of the "techniques" David is employing appear outwardly outdated compared to what we know now.

If memory serves, Relax is an engineer for Boeing (correct me if I'm wrong here) and has a background in such systems.

Cool info! on the technology info and Relax' background.

I'm wasn't in the "antennas & engineering" division, etc. but worked for a CDMA telco a bit more than a decade ago. but am mostly in the data world. Which leads to the question.

Ugly paragraph warning, would love to get feedback.

Doesn't multiple missile control per channel imply an omnidirectional signal a la wifi, etc.? To wit: the reason I haven't had problems with David's "control channel" technology has to do primarily with "amount of directional data vs. jammability over millions of km" requiring a ship to not only independently track a missile that is accelerating away at increasingly large fractions of C, (while not losing lock itself) but a maneuvering target with it's own decoys and ECM and update those ECM/penetration profiles for as long as possible. I've also imagined with no particular reasoning that the missiles likely have an amount of spin as well, to defend against EMP/nuke pulses with the missile's wedge.

Let's say that's a gig of data in a very short interval of time. That gig has to arrive unjammed by anything such as wedge interference, get unscrambled, update the seeker's info, yada yada yada in real time. That interval is stated to be short enough that even "rotating control" between three missiles increases the likelihood of a miss by a significant margin.

But that's where RFC/MWW started. Keyhole 1, then Keyhole 2, then Moriarty and Mycroft seem to establish multiple control paths for missile(s) downrange, now even at FTL speeds and distances. So his 'tech' is improving as the wars go on, which seems reasonable.

I think my biggest 'missile-tech' problem is that any attack missile ought to have the equivalent solving capacity as any of the biggest current Beowulf'd supercomputer clusters AD2015 and at terahertz processing speeds, let alone a near aircraft carrier size destroyer, yet we 'hear' that an SD's computers are much more able to get missiles on target than a DD's.
Last edited by SharkHunter on Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by kzt   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:27 pm

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That's because there are crazy ideas baked into the low level concept of how honorverse missiles work. I'm told the model used in 1990 or so when he put this together was the boardgame Harpoon. Which wasn't unreasonable, but Harpoon was based on 1960s-mid80s technology, so it hasn't aged well.
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Theemile   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:26 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
Theemile wrote:Sharkhunter, Relax is pointing out that the Honorverse doesn't seem to use many of the Electrical Engineering and computer technologies developed over the last 50 years. Simple things like IP protocols via WiFi mean one radio transmitter can send specialized, separate data to dozens if not hundreds of receivers. Cellular technologies allow secure, encrypted signals to bounce from 1 central transmitter to the next. Some of the "techniques" David is employing appear outwardly outdated compared to what we know now.

If memory serves, Relax is an engineer for Boeing (correct me if I'm wrong here) and has a background in such systems.

Cool info! on the technology info and Relax' background.

I'm wasn't in the "antennas & engineering" division, etc. but worked for a CDMA telco a bit more than a decade ago. but am mostly in the data world. Which leads to the question.

Ugly paragraph warning, would love to get feedback.

Doesn't multiple missile control per channel imply an omnidirectional signal a la wifi, etc.? To wit: the reason I haven't had problems with David's "control channel" technology has to do primarily with "amount of directional data vs. jammability over millions of km" requiring a ship to not only independently track a missile that is accelerating away at increasingly large fractions of C, (while not losing lock itself) but a maneuvering target with it's own decoys and ECM and update those ECM/penetration profiles for as long as possible. I've also imagined with no particular reasoning that the missiles likely have an amount of spin as well, to defend against EMP/nuke pulses with the missile's wedge.

Let's say that's a gig of data in a very short interval of time. That gig has to arrive unjammed by anything such as wedge interference, get unscrambled, update the seeker's info, yada yada yada in real time. That interval is stated to be short enough that even "rotating control" between three missiles increases the likelihood of a miss by a significant margin.

But that's where RFC/MWW started. Keyhole 1, then Keyhole 2, then Moriarty and Mycroft seem to establish multiple control paths for missile(s) downrange, now even at FTL speeds and distances. So his 'tech' is improving as the wars go on, which seems reasonable.

I think my biggest 'missile-tech' problem is that any attack missile ought to have the equivalent solving capacity as any of the biggest current Beowulf'd supercomputer clusters AD2015 and at terahertz processing speeds, let alone a near aircraft carrier size destroyer, yet we 'hear' that an SD's computers are much more able to get more missiles on target than a DD.



Internet packet technology used for websites (and everythig else on the web) solves many of these items. Information is broken into disctete packets exactly x # of characters long, at the beginning is the equivalent of a FAX coverletter, stating who it's from, who it's for, the type of information contained, the packet length, the first and last bit and a random bit, as well as a total value of the packet (these values allow the receiver to tell if the packet is corrupted) and the order of the packet in the sequence (in order to put everything back together).

I work with live global video systems, where latency (the length of time it takes data to get to it's destination)is a big deal - packets need to arrive within a short period of time for the far end device to turn the data into audio and video without an exessive delay - packets which arrive late or too far out of sequence need to be discarded and internal algrithyms "smooth" the damaged playback and "guess" the missing parts if the missing packets are not resent in time.

We routinely run with 128 or 256 bit AEC encryption with live 2 way audio and video, with heavy data compression (The standard H.264 compression on a DVD copmpresses the video data ~300x - the the newer forms of H.264 compression and H.265 take that to over 1000x compression.) allowing Full HD video to be transmitted along with 44k 3D Spacial audio in ~1 Mbit/sec of data.

Modern Telco Routers can handle 100s of Terabits per second, so Gigs of data in 2015 is no big deal - especially in a properly designed system with a singular purpose, and software designed to optimize the data sent.

When we throw in other emerging (or military spec) technologies like spread spectrum radios, frequency hopping (a now standard technology in Cellular network designed orignially by Heddy Lamar to defeat enemy jamming), multifrequency radios (data arriving on multiple frequencies simultaneously), and other, it makes some of us who know the technologies question David's solutions.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Relax   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:20 pm

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Theemile wrote:outwardly outdated compared to what we know now.

If memory serves, Relax is an engineer for Boeing (correct me if I'm wrong here) and has a background in such systems.


Yes, work for Boeing as a mechanical and sometimes as an Aeronautical engineer. I have also worked installing steam turbines.

I have been a HAM operator for effectively my entire life and have been sending compressed data streams for the last 40 years with off the shelf civilian hardware. IE 1970's tech at latest. Building my own computers to handle it, etc. RAM faults used to drive me NUTS! IE the dawn of of satellite telecommunications. Only difference is those satellites have VASTLY more bandwidth than my little miniscule setup with my HAM friends.

PS. We have had UAV's with TV since WWII, so can the general idiotic public please wring out your panties and stop "moaning" about your "privacy" concerning drones? I first flew my TV UAV drone in the early 80's.

PPS. My father is an electrical engineer who designed accelerometers, gyros, INS. My brother is also a mechanical engineer working for Boeing. My B-I-L works for Lockheed doing systems integration for RADAR, data to C&C loops etc. Naval mostly. Is now currently working on Lasers.
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Joat42   » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:..snip..
I work with live global video systems, where latency (the length of time it takes data to get to it's destination)is a big deal - packets need to arrive within a short period of time for the far end device to turn the data into audio and video without an exessive delay - packets which arrive late or too far out of sequence need to be discarded and internal algrithyms "smooth" the damaged playback and "guess" the missing parts if the missing packets are not resent in time.

Have a friend that have been working on virtual classrooms and the delay in those situations is frustrating since the cues for speaking up etc. is off the whole time. The transmission delays is the thing you really can't effect unless you rent your own pipes which only brings it down a bit. They ended up with a solution where they basically bypassed all the "nifty" software that talked to the cameras and streamed the cameras frame-buffer directly through some specialized hardware for compression. Total delay not counting transmission P2P <2 ms.

Theemile wrote:We routinely run with 128 or 256 bit AEC encryption with live 2 way audio and video, with heavy data compression (The standard H.264 compression on a DVD copmpresses the video data ~300x - the the newer forms of H.264 compression and H.265 take that to over 1000x compression.) allowing Full HD video to be transmitted along with 44k 3D Spacial audio in ~1 Mbit/sec of data.

When I worked with digital video in the 90's, we had no problems encoding MPEG2 ML@MP at 1.5Mbit/sec with our own software encoder (albeit with some baby-sitting of the parameters for the different scenes) at the same quality as everyone else could do at 4 times the bitrate (ie. ~72 mins of good quality video on an ordinary CD). We also did seamless switching of streams on PES-packet level (see press release). To get the buffer strategy to work was a royal pain. Some of the people I worked with went on to found Innobits which produced SW encoders for Macs. I left the broadcasting industry in the late 90's and started working as a contractor in the IT-industry instead.

Theemile wrote:Modern Telco Routers can handle 100s of Terabits per second, so Gigs of data in 2015 is no big deal - especially in a properly designed system with a singular purpose, and software designed to optimize the data sent.

When we throw in other emerging (or military spec) technologies like spread spectrum radios, frequency hopping (a now standard technology in Cellular network designed orignially by Heddy Lamar to defeat enemy jamming), multifrequency radios (data arriving on multiple frequencies simultaneously), and other, it makes some of us who know the technologies question David's solutions.

In the Honorverse, I haven't really gotten a feel for how much bandwidth the FTL can handle. So Gigs of data may be a problem to fit into FTL channels, not so much with directional radio or laser. In David's defense and in my opinion, retcons sucks - updating books to reflect real world technological progress is a major pain for all involved.

Btw, wasn't Heddy Lamars frequency hopping supposed to be used in remote controlled torpedo's?

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Theemile   » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:22 am

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Joat42 wrote:
Btw, wasn't Heddy Lamars frequency hopping supposed to be used in remote controlled torpedo's?


Yep, 88 frequencies selectable shifting "randomly" by using a modified player piano reel on the torpedo and launching aircraft. It suposedly switched fast enough that the jamming technology at the time couldn't identify the frequencies used in order to jam them. Ignored for years, it's now a mainstay in military and civilian communication networks. But I believe they have moved to more frequencies than 88.

My group uses dedicated corporate MPLS networks for our video and voice taffic with segmented vlans to separate the video and voice traffic from the normal business and manufacturing networks. But if we have to go out to the open internet, our performance can take a nose dive. There are currently several special global private internets called "exchanges" for heavy video traffic - usually run by telcos, they are low collision environments with massive pipes and require scheduled usage to keep usage metered. They are usually used by multiscreen immersive telepresence rooms and get response times under the 2ms mark, but they are a pretty penny ($150-250,000 per room). After 10 minutes in them you forget the people you are talking to are around the world in Shanghai. True story - after one meeting, my coworker, who installed these systems with me, accidentally walked behind the video screens in one of our Ohio offices in an attempt to clean a smudge on one of the chairs in France.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by stewart   » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:39 pm

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[quote="Relax"][quote="Theemile"]outwardly outdated compared to what we know now.



I have been a HAM operator for effectively my entire life and have been sending compressed data streams for the last 40 years with off the shelf civilian hardware. IE 1970's tech at latest. Building my own computers to handle it, etc. RAM faults used to drive me NUTS! IE the dawn of of satellite telecommunications. Only difference is those satellites have VASTLY more bandwidth than my little miniscule setup with my HAM friends.


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I suspect if we took a poll, we would find several of us have letters and numbers after our names.

-- Stewart / KG6BOV
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Relax   » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:12 am

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stewart wrote:
Relax wrote:I have been a HAM operator for effectively my entire life and have been sending compressed data streams for the last 40 years with off the shelf civilian hardware. IE 1970's tech at latest. Building my own computers to handle it, etc. RAM faults used to drive me NUTS! IE the dawn of of satellite telecommunications. Only difference is those satellites have VASTLY more bandwidth than my little miniscule setup with my HAM friends.

----------------

I suspect if we took a poll, we would find several of us have letters and numbers after our names.

-- Stewart / KG6BOV


I am sure you are correct.

True, but how many actually used their license? Very few. Know a lot of people who got them and never used it past picking up a 2m band hand radio. I certainly do not anymore. I let it expire. I used it regularly for 20 years as I got excited about all things engineering and dabbled in computers enough to build a few tempermental pull my hair out circuit board RAM messes(quickly decided I did NOT want to go into that field) then poof, life took over. I let the license expire 10 years ago. In retrospect, I would have made FAR more money in computer tech than as a mechanical engineer for Boeing. That is for sure. Originally used it to avoid phone charges. Then got hooked on data sending etc. Rise of the internet caboshed the need for data transfer as it was faster and did not cost all that much $$$. Beat the heck out of hiring a courier to deliver disks back and forth. The ol' 8" floppies and before that wire tape. Yea, guess I am dating myself :shock:

Brian KD7OGB(expired) Then again, I rarely even gave my call sign when doing a data transfer. Sue, me for lack of basic HAM practices... :o
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by stewart   » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:22 am

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Relax wrote:"stewart"]"Relax"]
I have been a HAM operator for effectively my entire life and have been sending compressed data streams for the last 40 years with off the shelf civilian hardware. IE 1970's tech at latest. Building my own computers to handle it, etc. RAM faults used to drive me NUTS! IE the dawn of of satellite telecommunications. Only difference is those satellites have VASTLY more bandwidth than my little miniscule setup with my HAM friends.

----------------

I suspect if we took a poll, we would find several of us have letters and numbers after our names.

-- Stewart / KG6BOV
[/quote]

I am sure you are correct.

True, but how many actually used their license? Very few. Know a lot of people who got them and never used it past picking up a 2m band hand radio. I certainly do not anymore. I let it expire. I used it regularly for 20 years as I got excited about all things engineering and dabbled in computers enough to build a few tempermental pull my hair out circuit board RAM messes(quickly decided I did NOT want to go into that field) then poof, life took over. I let the license expire 10 years ago. In retrospect, I would have made FAR more money in computer tech than as a mechanical engineer for Boeing. That is for sure. Originally used it to avoid phone charges. Then got hooked on data sending etc. Rise of the internet caboshed the need for data transfer as it was faster and did not cost all that much $$$. Beat the heck out of hiring a courier to deliver disks back and forth. The ol' 8" floppies and before that wire tape. Yea, guess I am dating myself :shock:

Brian KD7OGB(expired) Then again, I rarely even gave my call sign when doing a data transfer. Sue, me for lack of basic HAM practices... :o[/quote]


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I have seen that too, but it depends on what you get involved in. I am 75 miles from the San Andreas Fault and got involved with disaster response shortly after getting my license (originally KD4OSO).
Under "normal" circumstances, the internet is much faster than packet or PSK for data transmission, but it can be very fragile.
Applying to the Honorverse, it gives a good perspective to redundancy and operational flexibility.

-- Stewart (still active on the bands)
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Re: Future Point Defense Options
Post by Relax   » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:10 pm

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I always get a kick out of watching the Voyager I/II spacecraft. Billions of kilometers away, with barely any power still sending data.
[url]
http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/weekly-reports/[/url]
and here is some common sense perspective:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm

This is at Billions of km.
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Relax
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