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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:52 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
gcomeau wrote:(Because the name for that is not "opposing tyranny"... it's kind of the opposite)



I always find it amazing how these folks can´t see that. They describe disgustingly obvious dictatures and tyrannies as their wonderful utopia and then rant endlessly about how opposed to such they are.


From everything I've observed it's a carefully cultivated alternate reality in which the various facets of the gun lobby (like the NRA) spend inordinate amounts of time playing to the egos of gun owners by convincing them that that rifle in their closet makes them a heroic defender of liberty just like those virtuous souls who threw off the yoke of oppression and kicked the British out!


But they never, ever, ever deal with the fact that the "tyrannical government" they keep talking about today is not some overseas monarchy that has been imposed on them, it was voted into place by their neighbors within the last 2-4 years. They can't just fix anything it's doing that they don't agree with by pointing a gun at it unless their plan is to overthrow democratic rule by force of arms and become the tyranny they keep claiming they are the defense against.


(And then in the next breath, after essentially threatening to back an armed coup against the democratically elected government of the United States they will tell you how irrational you're being for thinking it might be a problem that they're all hoarding guns. )
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:23 am

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gcomeau; Respectfully, you last post has given me finally enough information and insight to perhaps understand where you are coming from. And I can polietly say that you have no apparent understanding what firearm ownership in the USA is all about.

I own machine guns and suppressors, short barreled rifles and shotguns. The vast collection is being downsized greatly. I do not need all those guns. I will keep just one pistol and probably the AK47 sawed off 12 gage shotgun. That is all. Defensive only.

In responsible hands, firearms do NOT make one feel powerful or in control. Just the opposite actually. With awesome (sp?) power comes awesome (sp?) responsibility. Owning all this stuff makes me responsible. Like my martial arts. I will take a physical beating before I lethally hurt my attackers. I have a responsibility not to do harm. Yep.

The NRA is a whimpy organization. Their intent is to slowly give away our gun rights. They have signed off on or agreed to every major USA Federal gun law since 1968. I cut up my life membership card way back then. The NRA is the problem, not the solution. You need to understand us much better before you make statements.

In fact, I have enough insight now to just ignore you. Respectfully. It is apparant you do not have any real wisdom. Perhaps just what you have learned or what you were told wrong by others. Respectfully. I do not have the time to try to educate you. Do not take this wrong. On some subjects, you know nothing.

Just me. HB of CJ (oldest coot) No speelll chzk. I can not speeel. Slight stroke. Yikes! Old age and stuff. :) All US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply. Your national, state and local gun laws may differ greatly. Respectfully. Edited to fix stuff.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:42 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:gcomeau; Respectfully, you last post has given me finally enough information and insight to perhaps understand where you are coming from. And I can polietly say that you have no apparent understanding what firearm ownership in the USA is all about.


I'm just taking many, many, many gun owners words for it. If I don't get it then blame them.

In fact, I have enough insight now to just ignore you. Respectfully. It is apparant you do not have any real wisdom.


Are you sure you're not ignoring me because you have no answer to this?

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3694&start=966
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:25 am

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What very few people understand is that we aren't talking about "the right for an idiot to carry around a gun in a grocery store" or a few people pissed off about an election to grab their guns and storm Washington. That is not what it's about, not for the liberal socialists. That's what they want you to keep thinking.
Ask yourself, what is the 2nd amendment? A law? NO! It is part of the Bill-of-Rights - the law is the Bill-of-Rights! You can't repeal one part of it without opening up the rest of it to repeal! A law repealing the "right-to-bear-arms" also opens this up to repeal:

The Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

By my count that's not 1 controversial right being removed but 18 rights being given up by the people, plus all the rights not listed that are not the right of the US Government to take, as per the 10th amendment.

With the liberal socialist traitors stacking the supreme court with more anti-freedom traitors, all they need is one crack to justify repeal of the entire bill and then the constitution, which obama is on record as disparaging as old and obsolete.
THEN we have the USSA.

If Hugh Laurie (or his writers) don't like it, the US has an open border. They don't have to stay here. They can leave! I believe his home in England has no such rights, enjoy.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by biochem   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:35 am

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If Hugh Laurie (or his writers) don't like it, the US has an open border. They don't have to stay here. They can leave! I believe his home in England has no such rights, enjoy.


That's always been something that has puzzled me. There are a tiny tiny percentage of Americans who HATE America. Not just dislike policy A or part X of the culture, but HATE and DESPISE virtually everything about America. They rant a lot. I've always wondered why they just don't leave and go somewhere else where they'd be happier. As MAD-4A said, we have open borders (at least for the exit part.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:51 am

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One thing that puzzles me is the perception held by many Americans (particularly on the right), that other democratic developed countries don't have rights similar to theirs. There are differences between countries, but generally we have at least as strong rights and freedoms as the USA, except for carrying guns (by popular choice).
We have religious freedom, freedom of speech, jury trials, OH&S, and freedom of association. I could court controversy by suggesting that we also have freedom from - gun murder, lack of affordable medical care, unliveable wages, and unfair dismissal.
Generally our rights aren't held by historical documents like bills of rights or detailed constitutions in the USA sense, but more by living documents and conventions enforced by common law under the Westminster System. Certainly big business has less control, although still too much.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by PeterZ   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:38 pm

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Daryl wrote:One thing that puzzles me is the perception held by many Americans (particularly on the right), that other democratic developed countries don't have rights similar to theirs. There are differences between countries, but generally we have at least as strong rights and freedoms as the USA, except for carrying guns (by popular choice).
We have religious freedom, freedom of speech, jury trials, OH&S, and freedom of association. I could court controversy by suggesting that we also have freedom from - gun murder, lack of affordable medical care, unliveable wages, and unfair dismissal.
Generally our rights aren't held by historical documents like bills of rights or detailed constitutions in the USA sense, but more by living documents and conventions enforced by common law under the Westminster System. Certainly big business has less control, although still too much.



Daryl,
As we have discussed in the past, it is not the rights per se as much as it is the notion of Liberty. To many Americans, a right is not granted by government but something possessed by the sovereign citizen of the US. Government can take away or infringe upon a right, but cannot grant rights as our government receives its sovereignty from the citizen.

Most other governments do grant rights because they are sovereign. Your governments hold your nation's sovereignty not the individual citizen. Because they do, they have the authority to grant rights to subject citizens. As such government needs to act to add rights, whereas in the US government action can only reduce liberty. The Constitution is a compromise between our citizens on which liberties we will give up to be able to live together as a society. Government acts only in prescribed ways captured in the Constitution so as to leave our liberties intact.

So your conventions guide your governments in what rights are important to the current crop of citizens. Your government acts to grant those rights in balance with other rights desired by your citizens. The opposite is true for the US. Current conventions for us guide our government in which rights they can most easily infringe upon. The more government takes onto itself, the less liberty each citizens has to act in pursuit of their happiness.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:55 pm

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Daryl wrote:... I could court controversy by suggesting that we also have freedom from - gun murder ...
which I highly doubt, you are saying that ABSOLUTLY NO-ONE in your entire country has been murdered by a gun?
PeterZ wrote:As we have discussed in the past, it is not the rights per se as much as it is the notion of Liberty...

quite right, a liberty is something the government grants (for now) and what the government grants it can un-grant. A Right is granted by sovereignty and cannot be taken away.
I was just watching a British cop show, forget which one, and one of the characters started protesting his treatment by the cop (bobby I guess) stating that he was a "citizen". The cop stopped him short with "You are not a citizen. Your Her Majesties SUBJECT". Meaning the crown owns you. You are granted what liberties your masters, the government, thinks necessary to stave off revolt.
In America, the government takes what liberties it can get away with, without causing a revolt.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:23 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:What very few people understand is that we aren't talking about "the right for an idiot to carry around a gun in a grocery store" or a few people pissed off about an election to grab their guns and storm Washington. That is not what it's about, not for the liberal socialists. That's what they want you to keep thinking.
Ask yourself, what is the 2nd amendment? A law? NO! It is part of the Bill-of-Rights - the law is the Bill-of-Rights! You can't repeal one part of it without opening up the rest of it to repeal!


The founders opened all of it to repeal, with the constitutional process. I'm stumped how you think it isn't already all opened up to repeal ni any way that will somehow change if anyone does something about the 2nd.

They're called amendments for a reason. Whatever the motivations of the people who passed them they knew they could have screwed some of them up, or some of them could have been rendered irrelevant or even harmful by changing conditions over time.


Hence, the amendment process. It's intended to be used. People who think any amendment in the constitution is some kind of holy doctrine that must never be questioned or altered simply do not understand how the Constitution was intended to work.


I mean FFS, Jefferson thought the entire Constitution should be re-written every generation because as the world changed that was the best way to keep the document relevant and appropriate to current conditions. It was sure as hell never intended to be a "look but never ever touch" document left unchanged for all eternity.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by pokermind   » Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:17 am

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gcomeau, IIRC Jefferson suggested a revolution every generation to water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots.

You are correct anything in the Constitution can be changed by one of two methods, one requires a super-majority in congress, the other a new Constitutional convention in both any amendment(s) then must be ratified by a super-majority of state legislatures.

The bill of rights is being and has been attacked by the Government for over two hundred years, President Adams' Alien and Sedition Act. President Lincoln's suspension of Hebious Corpus, Presidents Bush and Obama's Homeland Security mess turning the bill of rights into toilet paper.

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