Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Political one liners

The Management is not responsible for the contents of this forum. Enter at your own risk.
Re: Political one liners
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:18 am

thinkstoomuch
Admiral

Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: United States of America

Daryl wrote:...snip...

Most developed countries have a higher minimum wage than the US but have lower unemployment, smaller deficits per head of population, and better economic fundamentals. I realise that with the US being so large is still a strong economy overall anyway.

...snip...


Here we were talking about stupid statements made by candidates and you come back with this blatantly false statement on unemployment.

Simple fact check would have shown it. Perhaps you meant participation rate?

T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by Daryl   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:12 am

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3606
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

Sorry I was working off 3 yr old World Bank figures where the US was 9% and most countries were about 7%. The latest figures show the US at 6.2% which is middle pegging, some countries worse and some better.
I'll not swap our national debt per person or per GDP for yours. How much longer can that can be kicked down the road?

I'm really not trying to bag the US, but any reputable economist will tell you that raising the minimum wage to a living level is not only the right thing to do socially, but it stimulates the economy.

thinkstoomuch wrote:
Daryl wrote:...snip...

Most developed countries have a higher minimum wage than the US but have lower unemployment, smaller deficits per head of population, and better economic fundamentals. I realise that with the US being so large is still a strong economy overall anyway.

...snip...


Here we were talking about stupid statements made by candidates and you come back with this blatantly false statement on unemployment.

Simple fact check would have shown it. Perhaps you meant participation rate?

T2M
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by biochem   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:46 am

biochem
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:06 pm
Location: USA

thinkstoomuch wrote:
Simple fact check would have shown it. Perhaps you meant participation rate?

T2M



Personally I trust the participation rate more. The unemployment rate is easily manipulated by simply not counting people.

In the usa the unemployment rate in 2009 was 9.9% Dec 2009 and 5.0% Dec 2015 but the workforce participation rate was 64.6% in Dec 2009 and 62.6% in 2015, respectively. They just quit counting people.

http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

In Australia the numbers I found have unemployment at 5.5% in Dec 2009 and 5.8% in Dec 2015. And the labor for participation rate at 65.3% and 65.1% respectively.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/austral ... yment-rate
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/austral ... ation-rate

It looks like Australia's economy is currently doing better than the USA's. It doesn't surprise me, this is in part why Trump, Cruz and Sanders are doing so well in the polls.
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:02 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Daryl wrote:Sorry I was working off 3 yr old World Bank figures where the US was 9% and most countries were about 7%. The latest figures show the US at 6.2% which is middle pegging, some countries worse and some better.
I'll not swap our national debt per person or per GDP for yours. How much longer can that can be kicked down the road?

I'm really not trying to bag the US, but any reputable economist will tell you that raising the minimum wage to a living level is not only the right thing to do socially, but it stimulates the economy.


When the US was checking employment documentation, nobody made minimum wage for a full time job. Actual wages were much higher and the minimum wage was only paid to kids working their first part time jobs if then.

As workers flooded in over our southern border and weren't seriously prohibited from working, our median wages fell or remained stagnant. This has been true for decades. Increasing the minimum wage now simply means more illegals will flock to work here. As that minimum wage increases there will be increasing incentives to pay illegals below minimum wage. That will simply drive actual wages lower and worker participation rates lower still.

If we require documentation for employment and enforce stiff fines for employing undocumented workers on employers, the problem goes away. Illegals will self deport and the labor pool will shrink and wages rise to reflect a more limited supply of workers. Granted the ones with dependents born here might ride the dole. That's part of the reason Trump's message resonates with the middle and lower middle class.

It's fine for you guys downunder to crow about the minimum wage, you have an ocean limiting immigration for the destitute. You guys, especially the kiwis, take immigration rules seriously. Setting a minimum wage that is commensurate with the supply of workers costs your economy and society nothing. Try the same policies with a porous border.
Last edited by PeterZ on Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:12 pm

thinkstoomuch
Admiral

Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: United States of America

biochem wrote:...snip just showing what I am replying to ...

Personally I trust the participation rate more. The unemployment rate is easily manipulated by simply not counting people.

...snip...


A lot of this is difficult to figure out from a societal viewpoint.

Though I like actual employment to population ratio (both over a much longer time.)

Image

Just did the image because I could. :D

Looks like a we are roughly in the same ball park as historical. Lower than ~1985-2008 higher than before that.

With the significant caveat that more of the employed are women. Which is either a good or bad thing depending on the reasons.

T2M

PS[edit]. One of my sister's favorite quotes from our dad. When Mom wanted to go get a job he said, "sure then I can stay home and take care of the kids." We might actually be moving in that direction.
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:28 pm

thinkstoomuch
Admiral

Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: United States of America

Daryl wrote:Sorry I was working off 3 yr old World Bank figures where the US was 9% and most countries were about 7%. The latest figures show the US at 6.2% which is middle pegging, some countries worse and some better.
I'll not swap our national debt per person or per GDP for yours. How much longer can that can be kicked down the road?

I'm really not trying to bag the US, but any reputable economist will tell you that raising the minimum wage to a living level is not only the right thing to do socially, but it stimulates the economy.


Go to the primary sources.

http://www.bls.gov for the US.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf ... -banner=LN

Everything else is somewhat delayed or inaccurate. As is shown by your revised numbers still being inaccurate.

I done been there and burned by this. Way too many times. Both are bookmarked on my browser.

Though to be honest I hadn't looked at Australia's since before my trip this year. Y'all had a significant change. Though I wonder how China's slow down is going to affect all of us.

Have fun,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:49 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

thinkstoomuch wrote:
Daryl wrote:Sorry I was working off 3 yr old World Bank figures where the US was 9% and most countries were about 7%. The latest figures show the US at 6.2% which is middle pegging, some countries worse and some better.
I'll not swap our national debt per person or per GDP for yours. How much longer can that can be kicked down the road?

I'm really not trying to bag the US, but any reputable economist will tell you that raising the minimum wage to a living level is not only the right thing to do socially, but it stimulates the economy.


Go to the primary sources.

http://www.bls.gov for the US.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf ... -banner=LN

Everything else is somewhat delayed or inaccurate. As is shown by your revised numbers still being inaccurate.

I done been there and burned by this. Way too many times. Both are bookmarked on my browser.

Though to be honest I hadn't looked at Australia's since before my trip this year. Y'all had a significant change. Though I wonder how China's slow down is going to affect all of us.

Have fun,
T2M


China's slow down concerns me a tad, too. On the gripping hand we have a decrease in commodity consumption and lower capacity utilization driving costs down as well as capital inflows driven by a stronger dollar and the other hand we have lower overall demand worldwide reducing demand for US goods and services. Hard to say how this all plays out.

My hope is that we reduce our regulations so that our economy picks up. We have so much liquidity sloshing around still that we could offset quite a bit of fed tightening with an increase velocity of money. That will mean having our stock/securities prices see a significant correction. The greater the correction means the more money is being reallocated into the economy rather than being stored in securities.

On the whole, we should face some dislocations but nothing truly severe. That's what my guts tells me anyway. That of course relies on having someone who will adjust our over regulated business environment.
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:04 pm

Imaginos1892
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1332
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Daryl wrote:It would be unusual for a waiter to have the same income as a doctor, but there is no ethical reason for the doctor to have an income many times that of the waiter. A full time waiter working here (with weekend loadings etc) would probably be getting $40k to $60k a year (no tips!), and a GP on wages would get about $80k to $100k a year (private practice can be somewhat more). Some of our medical specialists do have high incomes of several $100ks a year (possibly up to a $mil, but this is not really admired).

It takes 10 to 15 years of damn hard work just to qualify to be a doctor. Then it takes a lot more work to stay current, plus the literally life-or-death pressure - doctors earn every penny. How hard is it to be a successful waiter? Get the right orders to the kitchen and don't drop the plates.

Leftists cry "income inequality!" like it's some sort of self-evident evil that must be destroyed, when it is in reality one of the greatest strengths of our economy. Without the notion that you can work to improve yourself and make more money, why would anybody take the trouble to learn medicine, machining, engineering, programming, and all the other difficult and complex skills that make our modern civilization possible? How many would even bother to graduate from high school? Far too many don't bother now, even with the rewards.
----------------------
It is not within the power of any government to increase the value of unskilled labor, only to raise its cost. Nor is it within the power of any government to compel employers to pay unskilled workers some arbitrary "minimum wage", only to punish them for paying less.
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by DDHvi   » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:21 pm

DDHvi
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:16 pm

And while only God can judge men's hearts, their voting records are fair game.


When politicians use the word "but" after any proclamation or statement that word INVALIDATES the entire message similar to the fine print in contracts and advertisements!!


=Madison: All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree.


Do you know a method of finding out the voting records of politicians in your area
:?:
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd
ddhviste@drtel.net

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
Top
Re: Political one liners
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:21 am

thinkstoomuch
Admiral

Posts: 2729
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: United States of America

DDHvi wrote:Do you know a method of finding out the voting records of politicians in your area
:?:



For the US Congress. For those who don't.

www.govtrack.us

They will send you an email with all the stuff voted on each day.

State, county, and local gets a lot more complicated.

Have fun,
T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
Top

Return to Politics