Honorverse ramblings and musings

kzt wrote:Remember this is the guy who thinks that 'sex slave' is just a nice way of saying 'prostitute'.

FCOL! How many times will I have to post this? And yet, we are back on it again? The coming incumbent agrees with me. Perhaps her education is acceptable?

More recently, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently upset Japan, a key U.S. ally, by demanding that all official documents refer to women drafted as prostitutes for the Japanese military during World War II as "enforced sex slaves" rather than by the euphemism "comfort women," the term preferred by the Japanese government.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:Remember this is the guy who thinks that 'sex slave' is just a nice way of saying 'prostitute'.

FCOL! How many times will I have to post this? And yet, we are back on it again? The coming incumbent agrees with me. Perhaps her education is acceptable?

More recently, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently upset Japan, a key U.S. ally, by demanding that all official documents refer to women drafted as prostitutes for the Japanese military during World War II as "enforced sex slaves" rather than by the euphemism "comfort women," the term preferred by the Japanese government.

I'm confused; how is pointing out that women forced to act as prostitutes are enforced sex slaves refuting a claim that "'sex slave' is just a nice way of saying 'prostitute'".

First of all 'sex slave' seems a less nice term that 'prostitute'. But more importantly the key difference would be the "forced" or "drafted" part. I certainly wouldn't call the women working at, say, Nevada's famous Bunny Ranch brothel sex slaves; they choose to work there.

Sure a subset, possibly worldwide even a large or majority subset, of prostitutes are forced into it. But that doesn't make 'prostitute' and 'sex slave' synonymous any more than the fact than in the antebellum US South most fieldworkers were slaves made 'fieldworker' and 'slave' synonymous.

Well, it's not worth rehashing all that, I was just pointing out something that might be better done in another way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLHZmVHSP7A

prostitute usually gets some of the money paid for her services, slaves don't.

Let's leave Nevada out of this. Shall we? The lion's share of prostitution in Nevada is illegal. Prostitution is not legal within the city limits. And Nevada is the lone state where legal prostitution can be found in the US. In MOST of the world it is illegal.

The US has one city where legal prostitution can be found and suddenly prostitution is glamorized. Amsterdam has legal prostitution. Been there "scene" that. So now prostitution is glamorized?

The world has given us famous prostitutes...

Lizzie Lape, mid-Ohio madam, owner of the White Pigeon saloon and house in Warren G. Harding’s Marion, Ohio, and operator of multiple bordellos, 1880s-1900s Polly Adler, New York madam, 1920s - 1940s Josie Arlington, madam in Storyville, New Orleans Laura Bell, the "Queen of London whoredom" Cassandra, the "Golden Heels Madamme" <La Tacón Dorado> Tijuana, B.C. México 1940's - 1980's many American tourist included some politicians used to cross the border between California and Tijuana to have a special love night with Cassandra, specially during the 1950s Theresa Berkeley, 19th-century dominatrix Mary Boleyn, lover of King Francis as well as King Henry VIII, the French king referred to her as "The English Mare" Calamity Jane, American frontierswoman Pearl Callahan, prostitute from Northern California, in the film American Courtesans, sex worker advocate[2] Alice Chambers, 19th century Dodge City prostitute Sheridan Ethen, "Whore of the Nord", famous for live-sex shows in Amsterdam Annie Chapman, one of the "canonical five" victims of Jack the Ripper Gina DePalma, porn star, prostitute and dominatrix, in the film American Courtesans[3] Kristen DiAngelo, brought back the term "courtesans", in order to re-brand prostitution in America, producer of the film American Courtesans[4] Madame du Barry, mistress to Louis XV of France Veronica Franco, Venetian courtesan and poetess Nell Gwyn, courtesan to Charles II of England Mary Jane Kelly, one of the "canonical five" victims of Jack the Ripper Nicole Leguay d'Oliva, French prostitute involved in the Affair of the Diamond Necklace who impersonated Marie Antoinette Carol Leigh, a.k.a. Scarlot Harlot, coined the term "sex worker"[5] Amanda Brooks is an Internet escort who has written business books for Internet escorts.[6] Mata Hari (born Margaretha Geertruida Zelle), Dutch spy Mary Ann Nichols, one of the "canonical five" victims of Jack the Ripper Barbara Payton, American actress turned prostitute[7] Shady Sadie (Josephine Marcus) Courtesan who had an affair with Wyatt Earp Annie Sprinkle, American sex worker, porn star, and sex educator and writer]] Chica da Silva, famous eighteenth-century slave courtesan in Brazil, subject of the movie Xica. Elizabeth Stride, one of the "canonical five" victims of Jack the Ripper Martha Tabram, a possible victim of Jack the Ripper Valérie Tasso, French author Libby Thompson, "Squirrel Tooth Alice," madam of a brothel in Sweetwater, Texas Clara Ward, Princesse de Caraman-Chimay, daughter of a Michigan lumberman who spent most of her life in Europe Lulu White, madam in Storyville, New Orleans Mistress Matisse, Seattle-based professional dominatrix and columnist who is prominent in sex workers' rights circles. Brooke Magnanti, blogger and scientist who wrote as Belle de Jour and was the inspiration for Billie Piper's character in Secret Diary of a Call Girl. Suzy Favor-Hamilton, 3 time Olympian for Track and Field, and the subject of intense publicity when her activities as an escort became public.[8] Air Force Amy, a legal prostitute in Nevada, pornographic actress, and adult model, who starred in of the HBO television documentary series Cathouse: The Series. MSNBC has called her "a living legend in the world of sex." Sheila Vogel-Coupe, at 85+ the oldest prostitute in the United Kingdom and, possibly, the world.

Who have helped glamorize the industry for those easily impressed and fooled. Yet, prostitution remains an ugly industry at large. Out of one million street-level prostitutes, you'd be hard pressed to find 20,000 that were NOT forced at some point - even if they were initially talked into giving it a go then denied exit.

There are sex slaves and there are forced sex slaves. Both are still sex slaves.

There are prostitutes and there are forced prostitutes. They are both prostitutes.

There are jurors and there are forced jurors (me). I'm still a frickin' juror!

This one word forced has thrown the lot of you for a loop. There is a television show dealing with the epidemic of human trafficking. Many of the kidnaped girls are commonly around 12-years-old. They are forced to become sexual slaves and sold into prostitution. By your definition, since they are "forced" they are not prostitutes. If that is so, then what is the reality of "forced prostitution?" Well, perhaps you are right and Johns ask for "prostitutes" because "sex slaves" don't put out and they DON'T get rug burns or spend the majority of their life on their knees or backs.

Prostitutes choose to get their asses beat by Pimps. They choose to service tens of men daily and not get to keep a single thin dime even though they are the ones risking their lives and lying on their backs. They choose to impose quotas on themselves.

One of the biggest problems in the world today is human sex trafficking. These females, many whom are underage, are forced into sexual slavery to perform acts of prostitution.

Does it matter if the Pimp or some larger representative is the one who cashes in?

Of course, I could be wrong about sex slaves. Their purpose in life could be to perform acts other than prostitution. They could be homemakers. Soccer moms. Cooks. Seamstresses. Engineers. Doctors. Lawyers...

Silly me, prostitution isn't in a sex slave's future at all.

Less than 1% of prostitution in the entire world is unforced. Less than 1 % doesn't have Pimps. And if that has to be explained to you, then by jumping jack rocks get out of the house sometimes!

There are over 3000 counties in the US. All have prostitution. Only one county is legal. Many of you seem to think that the majority of prostitutes in those 3144 counties choose to be prostitutes. No wonder women are so disinclined to report trafficking and their forced profession - because most people think it is their fault because they chose it. Pathetic support from Americans who watch too much frickin' "boob tube."

Of the 600,000-800,000 people trafficked across international borders each year, 70 percent are female and 50 percent are children. The majority of these victims are forced into the commercial sex trade. (Ibid.)

When I hear sex slave, I think prostitute. I'll accept forced prostitute (most are forced anyways.) When Hillary Clinton thinks of forced sex slaves she thinks of prostitute as well and she's a woman. Forget that she was Secretary of State and soon to be incumbent.

What's your qualifications?

You are right. Some people just can't be reached.

If you refuse to "get out" sometimes and see the world as it really is, consider...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/

If some prostitutes do choose to be, does that spoil the innocence of the majority of them who are forced, yet still indeed perform the same job as those who "want" to be?

Indeed, those who want to be are mostly seasoned and are not as alluring as the younger ones who haven't been emotionally "broken" and overexposed.

One documentary put paid to it, if I can only find it again, after the Euphemisms thread was closed...

The difference between sex slaves and prostitutes are only pertinent to traffickers and Johns.

To traffickers they are sex slaves - a commodity.

To end users, Johns, they are prostitutes.

ccchuck wrote:prostitute usually gets some of the money paid for her services, slaves don't.

Yet they both have rug burns and it is all the same to a John.

No they don't. They relinquish all of their money and are "taken" shopping to mostly get "necessities."

They are denied money because...

1. the pimps are afraid they will save and leave.
2. If they are busted their money is confiscated.

Only bottom girls are allowed to have money if and only if the pimp is incarcerated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottom_girl

Were StateSec ships generally altered in this manner? If so, their ships were hurting even more than Battlefleet's against the Haven sector.

PNS Tepes was a Warlord-class battlecruiser in service with Haven's State Security Naval Forces. Entirely manned by StateSec crew and permanently assigned to the Office of Public Information, the ship was destroyed in November 1911 PD in the Cerberus System by escaping Manticoran and Grayson prisoners of war. (HH7, OBS)

The yard which built Tepes had altered her basic design to better fit her role in the State Security Naval Forces. As an effect, the ship had three less grasers and one less missile tube in each broadside than originally specified for the Warlord-class. Spared tonnage was used for:

⦁additional life support for a double-sized Marine contingent - 600 State Security Ground Forces troops.
⦁two additional large boat bays.
⦁an expanded brig.

The alterations enchanced small-craft capacity and allowed Tepes to carry almost thirty of them, including:

⦁3 heavy-lift assault shuttles in each of two additional bays
⦁at least 2 pinnaces - one pinnacle was stationed at additional boat bay.
⦁naval personnel - 1900
⦁ground troops - 600

Ransom's staff

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/PNS_Tepes

cthia wrote:

ccchuck wrote:prostitute usually gets some of the money paid for her services, slaves don't.

Yet they both have rug burns and it is all the same to a John.

No they don't. They relinquish all of their money and are "taken" shopping to mostly get "necessities."

They are denied money because...

1. the pimps are afraid they will save and leave.
2. If they are busted their money is confiscated.

Only bottom girls are allowed to have money if and only if the pimp is incarcerated.

It is impossible to eliminate prostitution.

Any argument you make that does not start with that fact is based on delusion, and useless. Churches, kings, parliaments and dictators have been trying for centuries and have only achieved an unbroken series of epic failures.

So, the only choice you have is whether prostitution is going to be under some measure of control, or not. When governments attempt to "ban" the exchange of money for sex, they have chosen NOT. In fact, all the abuses that upset you so much are a result of trying to Stop Them from Doing That. If you really care about ending those abuses, you should start campaigning to have prostitution legalized immediately; the "cure" is a hundred times worse than the "disease".

Prohibition never works. Unfortunately, the world is full of self-righteous assholes that refuse to learn that lesson. They do not care about the abuse and misery they cause; they believe that the Bad People doing those Bad Things deserve it. They also point to the disaster they have caused as proof of what a Bad Thing it is they are trying to ban.
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See also my previous post on the subject:
http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5780&start=5
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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!

cthia wrote:Were StateSec ships generally altered in this manner? If so, their ships were hurting even more than Battlefleet's against the Haven sector.

PNS Tepes was a Warlord-class battlecruiser in service with Haven's State Security Naval Forces. Entirely manned by StateSec crew and permanently assigned to the Office of Public Information, the ship was destroyed in November 1911 PD in the Cerberus System by escaping Manticoran and Grayson prisoners of war. (HH7, OBS)

The yard which built Tepes had altered her basic design to better fit her role in the State Security Naval Forces. As an effect, the ship had three less grasers and one less missile tube in each broadside than originally specified for the Warlord-class. Spared tonnage was used for:

⦁additional life support for a double-sized Marine contingent - 600 State Security Ground Forces troops.
⦁two additional large boat bays.
⦁an expanded brig.

The alterations enchanced small-craft capacity and allowed Tepes to carry almost thirty of them, including:

⦁3 heavy-lift assault shuttles in each of two additional bays
⦁at least 2 pinnaces - one pinnacle was stationed at additional boat bay.
⦁naval personnel - 1900
⦁ground troops - 600

Ransom's staff

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/PNS_Tepes

Tepes was not intended to engage the RMN (or any other naval force). She was essentially Ransome's personal yacht of terror, with a reinforced intervention brigade, the additional lift to land the oversized ground force, and room for additional prisoners of the political kind. In some ways, she was a hyper-capable Maxim Gorky, an airborne propaganda and repression machine.

Those SS naval vessels which were intended to "reinforce" PN formations (and ensure their political reliability) would have to be as combat capable as the PN ships they were assigned to. Or else they would just serve as targets for the Manticoran Alliance fleet. And who knows, once their combat ineffectiveness became known, for the PN, as well.