Honorverse ramblings and musings

Back to the sex slaves vs prostitutes discussion. Firstly a disclaimer in that as yet I've never availed myself of their services, although sometimes I've wondered just how close to it the amateurs who only get frisky after an expensive show and meal are.
In many countries prostitution is legal, registered, controlled, taxed, and accepted. Here in Australia we have legal brothels and legal single girls. Current affair programs interview them, and they seem quite happy in their career choices. I saw a documentary on a number of other countries (New Zealand, Europe etc) a while back and it said the same.
While I'm sure that regrettably there are many sex slaves world wide, I'm also sure that the problem is much worse in places where the religious idiots have driven it underground.

As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue. Certainly in this country the majority are there of their own free will. The traditional concept of several drug addled street walkers controlled by a violent pimp does exist, but legal brothels are better for the punters, and police do sort out the pimps.

There has been mention here of prostitution being glorified. Perhaps the best method of reducing it would be to glorify the building of good families, along with training in how to do that. Of course, some would choose not to do so.

In all of this, there is the ancient problem: Who will watch the watchmen? When something is prohibited, there will be some enforcers on the take.

IIRC, G.K. Chesterton commented that original sin was the only Christian doctrine subject to experimental proof. Maybe so, maybe no. A number of experiments have been made showing that "honest" people are not completely honest - which is why historical evaluation of the evidence describing how a completely honest God can still forgive, by paying the penalty Himself is so critical.

Happy Good Friday and Easter, all

Daryl, you are being blinded by the hype.

http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/pub ... ndi022.pdf

There are many illegal brothels being operated worldwide. However, always, ALWAYS, in any country legal prostitutes are a very small percentage of that country's absolute prostitute population. There is much corruption that many would be professionals do not wish to deal with. The bylaws governing legal prostitution is often too prohibitive and complex for the average hooker. There are many women who cannot obtain legal status for many reasons. Some due to health. Many due to age and immigrant status. Then there is always the premium paid for virgins and minors - $1000. These underage, yet highly lucrative virgins cannot work in a brothel.

Then there are Pimp controlled streetwalkers where there is always a market. These are the cheaper and convenient hookers whose numbers and pavement patting greatly outnumber any other segment of prostitutes.

Trafficking sex slaves is the second largest criminal enterprise in the world. Do you really think these sex slaves are being peddled legally?

Many prostitutes in your country are Koreans. Many are trafficked in! There are illegal Korean sex houses operating in Australia. Many see Australia as importers of prostitution. And where there is smoke there is child-abusive fire.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 18664.html

Street-workers will always outnumber the legal professionals - and even a certain percentage of the legal pros were/are coerced!

Global prostitution may be a bigger industry than you think.

There are 40 to 42 million prostitutes in the world, according to a report from Fondation Scelles (via Le Figaro). Three quarters of them are between the ages of 13 and 25, and 80% of them are female.

Daryl wrote:As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue.

An estimated 1 million prostitutes live in the U.S., even though it's legal only in Nevada.

There are only 22 active brothels in Nevada. There is no way they average 500 girls each. But lets be generous and place them at a whopping 500 girls each for a total of 11,000 out of 1,000,000.

11,000/1,000,000 = .011 % legal prostitutes, that's being very generous. Over 95 % of illegal prostitutes surveyed have admitted to being coerced and/or forced at some point. Many getting their start as kids running away from sexually abusive fathers, relatives, family friends, etc.

And that's just America.


In the U.S. and elsewhere most prostitution is unregulated and many workers are forced into prostitution.

Some statistics:
China 5 Million
India 3 Million
United States 1 Million
Philippines 800,000
Mexico 500,000 Germany 400,000
Brazil 250,000 children
Thailand 250,000
Bangladesh 200,000
South Korea147,000
Turkey 118,000
Taiwan 100,000
Cambodia 70,000
Ukraine 67,500
United Kingdom 58,000
Kenya 50,000 children
Vietnam 33,000
South Africa 30,000 children
United Arab Emirates 30,000
France 20,000
Switzerland 20,000
Poland 19,000
Mongolia 19,000
Israel 17,500
Costa Rica15,000
Netherlands 7,000
New Zealand 3,5000
Denmark 3,200
Ireland 1,000

Jonathan_S wrote:First of all 'sex slave' seems a less nice term that 'prostitute'.

I object... again. Subjective. Subjective. Subjective.

Most of the real world begs to differ. Prostitute carries an overwhelmingly inescapable automatic, natural, reflexive negative connotation. Especially in the bible belt.

Sex slave garners some sympathy. Some empathy, because the "slave" aspect begs compassion. But I've been trying, to no avail, to impress upon everyone that in the real world of prostitution there is that same "forced" compliance.

Moreover, a woman would rather be known by anything other than a prostitute - barring the Bunny Ranchers and Playboy Bunnies that many prostitutes may not even dream of, let alone aspire to - because of the social STIGMA.

The object of Prostitute is John. The object of John is Prostitute.

No matter their name, each knows what the other is - at least for their own practical purpose.

A 12-yr-old frightened sex slave will feel as low as a "dirty prostitute" in her mind regardless of how politics ascribe or categorize the acts she's forced to perform.

Who knows, perhaps a John will even pass up an unwilling participant if she's only smart enough to tell him that she's not a prostitute but a sex slave. And just may be she won't get two blackened eyes for it either.

Did You know...

Human trafficking is the #2 crime on the planet and fastest growing
2+ children are forced into slavery every minute
Average age for sex trafficking is 12-14 years old
Average price $90/victim (endless *profit margin)

An apple in their mouth. A cucumber in their trap. And a banana in the tailpipe. Sex slave or prostitute, bears the same fruit.

Do you think it matters to frightened 12-14 year old girls - the frickin' 'politics of political correctness' regarding what is happening to them? Do you think it matters to the Johns their political stance? Lest their having a political stance shows spirit - and spirit is arousing. In her mind she may not be a prostitute and that may even mean something in her world.

And they all are forced. Except some relatively small datum, for whatever reason, that is uncharacteristic scatter points - "The Choosened Ones."

Sure, some prisoners chose to be a criminal by committing a crime. Some prisoners are there by mistake - as in they didn't choose to be there, fate chose them to be there and they were wrongfully imprisoned. I guess they are free to go in that case, because they can't be prisoners - not by "y'all" definition.

Immigrants tell of forced prostitution and slavery as trafficking gang is jailed

The plight of thousands of eastern European women kept as sex slaves in British brothels was highlighted yesterday as court proceedings against members of a major trafficking ring ended.

Detectives believe the gang brought at least 600 illegal immigrants to the UK, many of whom were locked up, forced into prostitution, and told their families back home would be killed if they refused to obey orders.

The women - the youngest known victim was 17 - were fed just one meal a day, charged for use of knives and forks, and forbidden to go near the windows of the Park Lane, Mayfair and Soho brothels where they worked 20-hour shifts. They were forced to have sex with up to 40 men a day for as little as £10 a time to pay off £20,000 debts each - the price for which they were "bought". They were charged rent, and subjected to fines if they refused anal or unprotected sex or a client was not attracted to them. Some escaped after passing notes to each other via a client.

...

Anti-Slavery International launched a campaign for the humane treatment of trafficking victims this week, and the government faces an inquiry from the joint select committee on human rights and pressure to sign the Council of Europe Convention on trafficking.

"It cannot be right that these women who have been so badly treated should not have access to specialist legal advice and a reflection period of 30 days in a safe and supportive environment in which to consider helping the prosecution of the criminals," said committee member Evan Harris, a Liberal Democrat MP. "Instead, most are being sent straight back to their home country and some are being re-trafficked all over again."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/ ... on.ukcrime


I am not saying that prostitution is not a respectable profession if done right. It is. I am not saying that it should or shouldn't be legalized. I am not denying that many respectable women choose to become prostitutes - I am saying that they are but a drop in the bucket compared to those who are criminally coerced and/or forced, underage, kidnapped, trafficked, beaten and killed throughout the world.

The bulk of prostitution does not happen in havens like the BunnyRanch. In fact, the ranches and brothels of the world are not even a drop in a pool.

But let's not lose sight of the original discussion, brought up by a stubborn poster accusing this guy as the one who thinks "sex slave" is synonymous with prostitute.

I certainly, as sure as they are being "screwed" and money is changing hands, do.

My friends ask me what the lot of you think "sex slaves" actually do, if not prostitute for someone? If any of you know of something they are "used" for other than prostitution, I'd appreciate it if you'll pen it here so I can inform my dumbstruck friends and I. Because damphiknow.

Stop looking at prostitution from tv and internet pics of legal brothels. They give a tainted image of reality.

This same old song is getting old - though it does tickle the heck out of my friends.

May I respectfully ask the ladies to leave the room? Toilet-room talk, Men Only!

"Hey man, I'm hornier than a horned toad. Where can I buy some trim? What about those girls over there, can I get laid?"

"Well, the ones in blue are all sad. They are sex-slaves. The ones in pink are all amenable prostitutes (except most)."

"I don't want their history man. Can I buy some woo shoo!"

"Yep. Any of them."

"Now you're talking!"

Any questions?

http://www.businessinsider.com/there-ar ... ive-2012-1

In this reply, I'm not addressing the issue directly.

But please do not consider applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse. You dropped not one, but two decimal places.

cthia wrote:

Daryl wrote:As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue.

An estimated 1 million prostitutes live in the U.S., even though it's legal only in Nevada.

There are only 22 active brothels in Nevada. There is no way they average 500 girls each. But lets be generous and place them at a whopping 500 girls each for a total of 11,000 out of 1,000,000.

11,000/1,000,000 = .011 % legal prostitutes, that's being very generous. Over 95 % of illegal prostitutes surveyed have admitted to being coerced and/or forced at some point. Many getting their start as kids running away from sexually abusive fathers, relatives, family friends, etc.

11,000/1,000,000 = 0.011

To convert the decimal number to a percentage, multiply the decimal number by 100 and add the percentage sign.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

0.011 expressed as a percentage: 0.011 * 100 = 1.1%

Edit: You aren't alone in dropping decimal point when converting numbers to percentages. David did it in:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 30 wrote:Against all that, less than nine thousand treecats might not seem so terrible. But there were many planets occupied by human beings, while by the Sphinx Forestry Service’s best estimate, the total treecat population was probably less than twelve million, which meant those nine thousand lives represented almost a full percent of them. Not one percent of the treecats living on the planet Sphinx; one percent—one out of every hundred—of every treecat in the entire universe.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.0075

0.0075 expressed as a percentage: 0.0075 * 100 = 0.075%

That would seem to disqualify David from applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse as well.

Yes Vince. Tell me something I didn't know.

Perhaps you didn't thoroughly read my posts and also figured out that that was to support my claim that less than 1 % of prostitutes are unforced. Since I was generous in attributing all 22 operating brothels as having 500 girls each, (as the largest and most famous Bunny Ranch) I think the math supports my claim.


I left it for the readers to readily know the conversion. Personally, I've never needed to do that. My eyes automatically do it for me. Do you personally still have to do that, now that you're out of school? Can't you just get there in your head? Don't you automatically see 1.1% ?

I do, as easily as I see hex numbers as decimal and vice versa.

Did I have more confidence in math abilities than I should have?

Vince wrote:In this reply, I'm not addressing the issue directly.

But please do not consider applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse. You dropped not one, but two decimal places.

cthia wrote:

Daryl wrote:As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue.

An estimated 1 million prostitutes live in the U.S., even though it's legal only in Nevada.

There are only 22 active brothels in Nevada. There is no way they average 500 girls each. But lets be generous and place them at a whopping 500 girls each for a total of 11,000 out of 1,000,000.

11,000/1,000,000 = .011 % legal prostitutes, that's being very generous. Over 95 % of illegal prostitutes surveyed have admitted to being coerced and/or forced at some point. Many getting their start as kids running away from sexually abusive fathers, relatives, family friends, etc.

Vince wrote:11,000/1,000,000 = 0.011

To convert the decimal number to a percentage, multiply the decimal number by 100 and add the percentage sign.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

0.011 expressed as a percentage: 0.011 * 100 = 1.1%

Edit: You aren't alone in dropping decimal point when converting numbers to percentages. David did it in:

Mission of Honor, Chapter 30 wrote:Against all that, less than nine thousand treecats might not seem so terrible. But there were many planets occupied by human beings, while by the Sphinx Forestry Service’s best estimate, the total treecat population was probably less than twelve million, which meant those nine thousand lives represented almost a full percent of them. Not one percent of the treecats living on the planet Sphinx; one percent—one out of every hundred—of every treecat in the entire universe.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.0075

0.0075 expressed as a percentage: 0.0075 * 100 = 0.075%

That would seem to disqualify David from applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse as well.

Correct yourself here, Vince.

See the danger of not being able to automatically "see" in your head?

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:In this reply, I'm not addressing the issue directly.

But please do not consider applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse. You dropped not one, but two decimal places.

cthia wrote:
Daryl As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue.

An estimated 1 million prostitutes live in the U.S., even though it's legal only in Nevada.

There are only 22 active brothels in Nevada. There is no way they average 500 girls each. But lets be generous and place them at a whopping 500 girls each for a total of 11,000 out of 1,000,000.

11,000/1,000,000 = .011 % legal prostitutes, that's being very generous. Over 95 % of illegal prostitutes surveyed have admitted to being coerced and/or forced at some point. Many getting their start as kids running away from sexually abusive fathers, relatives, family friends, etc.

Vince wrote:11,000/1,000,000 = 0.011

To convert the decimal number to a percentage, multiply the decimal number by 100 and add the percentage sign.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

0.011 expressed as a percentage: 0.011 * 100 = 1.1%

Edit: You aren't alone in dropping decimal point when converting numbers to percentages. David did it in Mission of Honor, Chapter 30:
Against all that, less than nine thousand treecats might not seem so terrible. But there were many planets occupied by human beings, while by the Sphinx Forestry Service’s best estimate, the total treecat population was probably less than twelve million, which meant those nine thousand lives represented almost a full percent of them. Not one percent of the treecats living on the planet Sphinx; one percent—one out of every hundred—of every treecat in the entire universe.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.0075

0.0075 expressed as a percentage: 0.0075 * 100 = 0.075%

That would seem to disqualify David from applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse as well.

Correct yourself here, Vince.

See the danger of not being able to automatically "see" in your head?

In this case, you're right.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.00075, not 0.0075 (dropped a decimal point).

0.00075 expressed as a percentage: 0.00075 * 100 = 0.075%
(Yay, recovered the decimal point, with the final result being correct).

You've said in the past that you write programming code. I've done so as well, so I would expect that you are familiar with Murphy's Laws of Computer Science. Especially this one: Any bug (or errors, in the above cases) that you cannot find in your code will be obvious to someone else. And the time that other person spends looking at your code before they find the bug is inversely related to the amount of time you spent looking at the same code trying to find the bug without success before you finally gave up and asked for help.

Points to you for finding my intermediate errors (these can be really hard to track down as opposed to an error in a final result).

Quotes converted to italics due to embedding limit.

cthia wrote:

Vince wrote:In this reply, I'm not addressing the issue directly.

But please do not consider applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse. You dropped not one, but two decimal places.

cthia wrote:
Daryl As to Cthia's statement that less than 1% of prostitutes are unforced, that is just untrue.

An estimated 1 million prostitutes live in the U.S., even though it's legal only in Nevada.

There are only 22 active brothels in Nevada. There is no way they average 500 girls each. But lets be generous and place them at a whopping 500 girls each for a total of 11,000 out of 1,000,000.

11,000/1,000,000 = .011 % legal prostitutes, that's being very generous. Over 95 % of illegal prostitutes surveyed have admitted to being coerced and/or forced at some point. Many getting their start as kids running away from sexually abusive fathers, relatives, family friends, etc.

Vince wrote:11,000/1,000,000 = 0.011

To convert the decimal number to a percentage, multiply the decimal number by 100 and add the percentage sign.
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

0.011 expressed as a percentage: 0.011 * 100 = 1.1%

Edit: You aren't alone in dropping decimal point when converting numbers to percentages. David did it in Mission of Honor, Chapter 30:
Against all that, less than nine thousand treecats might not seem so terrible. But there were many planets occupied by human beings, while by the Sphinx Forestry Service’s best estimate, the total treecat population was probably less than twelve million, which meant those nine thousand lives represented almost a full percent of them. Not one percent of the treecats living on the planet Sphinx; one percent—one out of every hundred—of every treecat in the entire universe.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.0075

0.0075 expressed as a percentage: 0.0075 * 100 = 0.075%

That would seem to disqualify David from applying for the position of astrogator in the Honorverse as well.

Correct yourself here, Vince.

See the danger of not being able to automatically "see" in your head?

Vince wrote:In this case, you're right.

9,000/12,000,000 = 0.00075, not 0.0075 (dropped a decimal point).

0.00075 expressed as a percentage: 0.00075 * 100 = 0.075%
(Yay, recovered the decimal point, with the final result being correct).

You've said in the past that you write programming code. I've done so as well, so I would expect that you are familiar with Murphy's Laws of Computer Science. Especially this one: Any bug (or errors, in the above cases) that you cannot find in your code will be obvious to someone else. And the time that other person spends looking at your code before they find the bug is inversely related to the amount of time you spent looking at the same code trying to find the bug without success before you finally gave up and asked for help.

Points to you for finding my intermediate errors (these can be really hard to track down as opposed to an error in a final result).

Quotes converted to italics due to embedding limit.

Which highlights the necessity of writing test code - inputting values with known results. This helps to eliminate complex errors by early detection, and by containment to a specific "local" function.

Gross errors in programming are easily picked up. It's the subtle ones that trip you up.

Very briefly back to hookers (as I know I won't convince you & you won't convince me), I still disagree with the premise that 99% of prostitutes world wide are forced. Your perspective is from a religious state (in god we trust etc), yet the secular countries have less restrictive laws which enables free women (& men) to do it as a career.
When I worked years ago for our Government Employment Department I liaised with the Sex Workers Collective to put in place OH&S, redundancy training and all regular workplace conditions. The women I knew from that (not in the biblical sense) all enjoyed their work, were well educated, drug free and not ashamed at all. We supported them exactly the same as we would other industries, with the exception of not doing recruiting for them due to pressure from the Christian lobby.

Sex slaving is an abhorrent practice and to link free prostitution with that is not logical.

cthia wrote:Let's leave Nevada out of this. Shall we? The lion's share of prostitution in Nevada is illegal. Prostitution is not legal within the city limits. And Nevada is the lone state where legal prostitution can be found in the US. In MOST of the world it is illegal.

The US has one city where legal prostitution can be found and suddenly prostitution is glamorized. Amsterdam has legal prostitution. Been there "scene" that. So now prostitution is glamorized?

Fine. What do you propose to do about it? What new solution have you come up with that has not already been proven a dismal failure? Always bearing in mind:

It is impossible to eliminate prostitution.

Not "difficult". Not "expensive". Not "we have to really, really want it to go away". IMPOSSIBLE. As long as sex and money exist they will be exchanged.

If you do not want to believe that, if your "solution" does not take that into account, you are just making noise.
------------------------
Simple answers to complex questions are always wrong.