Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

I don't know whether a currency war like what exists with China, or unfair manipulation of currencies, like what exists with China, is possible in the HV. But, during Lacoon and it's negative economic impact on the SEM, the MWJ puts the SEM in an optimum position to squeeze the League even further and lessen its own losses by encouraging even more trade with the SEM.

The SK could have also used the MWJ to squeeze Oscar's Peeps doing war. Why not? War is war. It is not waged fairly, or even humanely in Haven's case. Why couldn't the SK ban Haven's Courier's and DBs, and seize Haven's assets in Manticoran space?

Why are Couriers and DBs given diplomatic immunity during war? Especially when they are a danger to OpSec, and are used unfairly during war? Why shouldn't the SK shut out it's enemy's ability to trade in the MBS during times of war? That would be a significant trade embargo. More than that, it could be viewed as an alternative Manticoran one-off to commerce raiding.

Which, essentially, means the SK could have attempted to corner the market on commerce raiding. LOL

cthia wrote:I don't know whether a currency war like what exists with China, or unfair manipulation of currencies, like what exists with China, is possible in the HV. But, during Lacoon and it's negative economic impact on the SEM, the MWJ puts the SEM in an optimum position to squeeze the League even further and lessen its own losses by encouraging even more trade with the SEM.

The SK could have also used the MWJ to squeeze Oscar's Peeps doing war. Why not? War is war. It is not waged fairly, or even humanely in Haven's case. Why couldn't the SK ban Haven's Courier's and DBs, and seize Haven's assets in Manticoran space?

Why are Couriers and DBs given diplomatic immunity during war? Especially when they are a danger to OpSec, and are used unfairly during war? Why shouldn't the SK shut out it's enemy's ability to trade in the MBS during times of war? That would be a significant trade embargo. More than that, it could be viewed as an alternative Manticoran one-off to commerce raiding.

Which, essentially, means the SK could have attempted to corner the market on commerce raiding. LOL

I believe the only dispatch boats with diplomatic immunity are the ones actually attached to embassies, etc. Manticore celebrates freedom of the press and so allows DB's operated by news organizations to use the junctions. However anyone trading with Haven would need to use a neutral third party to carry the freight. Any ship owned by Haven could be a legitimate prize of war.

It is mentioned in the books that one of the problems with getting the embargoed technology from the League was the time it took to conduct the trade, since the wormholes could not be used. I assume that any ship trading with Haven through the wormhole junction would be searched for contraband war material.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I don't know whether a currency war like what exists with China, or unfair manipulation of currencies, like what exists with China, is possible in the HV. But, during Lacoon and it's negative economic impact on the SEM, the MWJ puts the SEM in an optimum position to squeeze the League even further and lessen its own losses by encouraging even more trade with the SEM.

The SK could have also used the MWJ to squeeze Oscar's Peeps doing war. Why not? War is war. It is not waged fairly, or even humanely in Haven's case. Why couldn't the SK ban Haven's Courier's and DBs, and seize Haven's assets in Manticoran space?

Why are Couriers and DBs given diplomatic immunity during war? Especially when they are a danger to OpSec, and are used unfairly during war? Why shouldn't the SK shut out it's enemy's ability to trade in the MBS during times of war? That would be a significant trade embargo. More than that, it could be viewed as an alternative Manticoran one-off to commerce raiding.

Which, essentially, means the SK could have attempted to corner the market on commerce raiding. LOL

I believe the only dispatch boats with diplomatic immunity are the ones actually attached to embassies, etc. Manticore celebrates freedom of the press and so allows DB's operated by news organizations to use the junctions. However anyone trading with Haven would need to use a neutral third party to carry the freight. Any ship owned by Haven could be a legitimate prize of war.

It is mentioned in the books that one of the problems with getting the embargoed technology from the League was the time it took to conduct the trade, since the wormholes could not be used. I assume that any ship trading with Haven through the wormhole junction would be searched for contraband war material.

I would think that Couriers attached to banks have to have some sort of guarantee they won't be seized or harassed. At least in peace time. At the beginning of war, I would imagine they would be recalled home just as the SEM did with their freighters in UH. But, other systems have banks located near the junction in Manty space and on planet as well. I'm suggesting those assets could be seized. I would imagine Manty know-how could even break the codes. If not, they could still prevent the Havenite banking system from using the assets.

At any rate, impounding any and all Couriers and DBs associated with an enemy's banking system will hit hard. Shall we label it white-collar commerce raiding?

tlb wrote:It is mentioned in the books that one of the problems with getting the embargoed technology from the League was the time it took to conduct the trade, since the wormholes could not be used. I assume that any ship trading with Haven through the wormhole junction would be searched for contraband war material.

Make that junctions, plural. The same that happened at the MWHJ also happened in Erewhon. Haven was blocked at both junctions during the first war, which severely limited its access to the League and also access to information. This was mentioned more than once in the books.

In the second war it was different, of course. Having Erewhon leave the Alliance and become neutral helped Haven greatly, not just in the technology that it shared.

cthia wrote:The SK could have also used the MWJ to squeeze Oscar's Peeps doing war. Why not? War is war. It is not waged fairly, or even humanely in Haven's case. Why couldn't the SK ban Haven's Courier's and DBs, and seize Haven's assets in Manticoran space?

Why do you think they didn't do this (during the actual wars, not during the 'cold war' leading up to the first war or the intra-war cease fire)? RFC has said that Havenite currency was pretty much worthless outside of Haven in the Committee/late Legislaturalist period.

Currency wars will have limits. Not a limit on what a particular country can do with currency but what they will allow or force. Then there are things which are not "wars" but are the prerogative of Soverign Nations and then if moves down hill to what is required by various businesses or individuals.

Typicaly you have to pay government taxes in the currency of that government. In stable countries, the local currency is generaly that which is used for transactions withing the country.
When you are using any kind of electronic transfer, using your own "money" just gets exchanged for the local currency. Best example is using US Dollars in the United States and the same credit/debit card in Italy would be converted at the then-current bank conversion rate for Dollars to Euros. Depends on the bank the vendor is using because not eveybody has to work with the same money center bank locally.

Not so stable countries.... all bets are off. Whille you might be able to get the physical local currency, it may fluctuate wildly even in the same town both on how much of it you can get for 1 of some other currancy or how much of it will cost you for the same product daily.

Then there can be government requiements. They can make it illegal to bring any other currency into a country (or specific other currency) and require all local transactions to be in a set currency. That will mean that if you are arranging to buy something from a person in that country you will HAVE TO work though a bank, private or government institution to convert your money to their money. If you are talking about Russia in the Cold War, it was though government sources and the exchange rate was artificialy adjusted to raise the cost of their ruble.

Most countries (ok, make that many countries) allow essentialy free-market forces to set currency exchange rates (and that DOES involve a conversion fee which is typicaly adjusted by small adjustment to the rate rather than a flat fee.

The Panama Canal is essentilay requireing fee for transit and other costs to be paid in US Dollars by electronic bank transfer though you could show up with cash--not really recommended.

SEM is requireing payment for junction useage in Manticorian Dollars. You are going to have to make an electronic payment (which must "clear")

I suspect that if you are from some other system and buying a meal in the Star Empire, the conversion is going to take place at local banking operation and handled very much the way using a card where the currency is nominaly that of where the issuing bank is located just like in Italy or the US. On the other hand, given interstellar distances, you may have to make an arrangement with a bank operating locally (either by yourself or through your bank) to make any funds available in the Star Kingdom

In the war with Haven, SEM is going to prohibit the use of Haven currency though they can not stop Haven from buying amounts of other currencies and useing them.

In the conflict between SEM and SL, Manticore could fix an exchage rate artificialy high for buying Manticorian Dollars using Solarian Credits but that was never going to happen given what was going on. MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE in that case to allow political and market forces to hammer the League and just keep accepting Junction fees in MD.

SEM restricted the flow of trade through the Junction and eventulay though any wormhole bridge it controlled to exclude SL flagged ships. That was crushing the League's Government's ability to generate funds because it cut off where and how the income came in-fees on interstellar trade within the League. Not only were no SL flagged ships allowed to use the Junction (and so cargoes were not moving/no fees if not loading on ships) Manticore had caused to be witdrawn all the Manticorian flagged ships so there was massive loss of ability to move goods between and beyond the SL controled area- again. no goods loading/unloading, no fees.

Ah well, the wonderful world of currency markets and manipulation.

cthia wrote:I would think that Couriers attached to banks have to have some sort of guarantee they won't be seized or harassed. At least in peace time. At the beginning of war, I would imagine they would be recalled home just as the SEM did with their freighters in UH. But, other systems have banks located near the junction in Manty space and on planet as well. I'm suggesting those assets could be seized. I would imagine Manty know-how could even break the codes. If not, they could still prevent the Havenite banking system from using the assets.

At any rate, impounding any and all Couriers and DBs associated with an enemy's banking system will hit hard. Shall we label it white-collar commerce raiding?

In peace time, there should not be a question of seizing any nation's dispatch boats; that is close to an act of either war or piracy. Are you talking about seizing either banks or DB's belonging to a neutral nation (because that would not be acceptable)? If you think that assets of a combatant at one of the banks should be the subject of an action, I think the neutral nation would not agree.

In any case I expect information flow through the galaxy, including financial and banking information, will take place on neutral ships. If any combatant tries to interrupt or interfere with that flow, then they might find themselves boycotted by the courier services.

cthia wrote:I would think that Couriers attached to banks have to have some sort of guarantee they won't be seized or harassed. At least in peace time. At the beginning of war, I would imagine they would be recalled home just as the SEM did with their freighters in UH. But, other systems have banks located near the junction in Manty space and on planet as well. I'm suggesting those assets could be seized. I would imagine Manty know-how could even break the codes. If not, they could still prevent the Havenite banking system from using the assets.

At any rate, impounding any and all Couriers and DBs associated with an enemy's banking system will hit hard. Shall we label it white-collar commerce raiding?

tlb wrote:In peace time, there should not be a question of seizing any nation's dispatch boats; that is close to an act of either war or piracy. Are you talking about seizing either banks or DB's belonging to a neutral nation (because that would not be acceptable)?

I'm saying any nation's Couriers should be guaranteed to be harassment free, at the very least, in time of peace.

I don't know why anyone at war would seize a nation's ships if they are not at war with that nation. Unless said "neutral" nation is spying for the enemy. In which case, that would dispell its neutral status anyway, wouldn't you agree?

tlb wrote:If you think that assets of a combatant at one of the banks should be the subject of an action, I think the neutral nation would not agree.

I certainly agree as well, IF there is such an animal as a neutral party to carry some other nation's banking data and currencies. I'm completely nonplussed at the notion as it is applied to either of the Superpowers.

What nation do you think would, indeed could, fit that role? We know that Manticore has the greatest track record to date protecting it's freighters. Why would they want to subcontract that HUGE responsibility out to a much less capable nation? Manticore's DBs and Couriers may even be much faster. More experienced. Better trained. They're possibly even bonded and retired naval officers.

tlb wrote:In any case I expect information flow through the galaxy, including financial and banking information, will take place on neutral ships. If any combatant tries to interrupt or interfere with that flow, then they might find themselves boycotted by the courier services.

As I said, I don't think such an animal exists for nation's that are Superpowers. Lesser nation's may seek the SEMs more secure service. And, I doubt the League would care about any such boycott even if it is as you say, in time of war. I think Case Buccaneer would certainly care less. Pirates would certainly care less. Werniche's minions would certainly care less.

At any rate, why wouldn't the enemy's banking ships be at the top of the list in time of war?

My whole point is born out of not knowing what leeway banking ships are given in wartime. News ships seem to be given free rein, even when they're non neutral. (Although that could be argued in a manner I can understand. News Couriers can help set the record straight when hairy gorilla's lie, for one.)

I'm saying, out of ignorance toward galactic policy towards banking ships during a state of war, that they should be seized. If indeed they are not. However, a gray area would exist in the case of a defacto state of war.

In the age of sail, why would your enemy not seize the shiploads of gold headed in your direction? Why would any combatant refuse an opportunity to disrupt an enemy's financial centers? I think the perpetrators of 911 had that same notion in mind, "as well."

.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:The SK could have also used the MWJ to squeeze Oscar's Peeps doing war. Why not? War is war. It is not waged fairly, or even humanely in Haven's case. Why couldn't the SK ban Haven's Courier's and DBs, and seize Haven's assets in Manticoran space?

Why do you think they didn't do this (during the actual wars, not during the 'cold war' leading up to the first war or the intra-war cease fire)? RFC has said that Havenite currency was pretty much worthless outside of Haven in the Committee/late Legislaturalist period.

As far as seizing the DBs and Couriers associated with the enemy's banks, it isn't that I don't think they were seized; it's simply that I'm not sure that they were. Since certain ones of those damn DBs were allowed to run free, spy, and even participate in military operations.

As far as seizing assets, I would have been shocked if they DIDN'T do that. At least freeze accounts, or shut down those branches of banks.

Thanks for the memo about what RFC said regarding the currency. Which is exactly what I was getting at. The MWJ has the ability to pull the plug on financial operations that have been longstanding and well established. It's what China is currently doing to the US's dependence on well established trade patterns.

BEWARE THE DOUBLE POST.

Taking a nutral's diplomatic traffic ,pouch/Couriers, diplomats, embassy/consulate locaton is a major breach of international (or in our case interstellar) law. It can lead to war, it certainly will be a major incedent.

I seem to recall we last saw the SEM's Ambassador watching the mob in the street in New Chicago from some high numbered floor in the Beowulf Embasy. Don't think he is mentioned again and certainly not that he was killed or taken as some sort of hostage. On the other hand, we have the example of the attack on the US Embassy in Iran by the "student guards" and the "Government" of Iran claimed to 1) not be invovled and 2) had no way to get the staff out of the "protestors" hands and return them to the US. So that is possible way to get things you think you need or suspect is there.
Or some pirate siezes a Consular DB and may or may not admit to it- the only real reason to admit to it at least say they aquired the people- is to get a ransom for "finding them" and organizing a safe return for a "fee". Said pirate would have to be awfully greedy because they would have no future cover and it was just contract work for a 3rd party then both the injured party and the 3rd party is still going to be looking for them.
Just saying. It's a dangerous business, commerce raiding.