Nomads in the HV?

Jonathan_S wrote:The goalposts seem to be moving.

Not really. We are discussing two separate events.

Jonathan_S wrote:You had started by talking about "a ship could experience an emergency which causes them to drop out of hyper" if the emergency is with the hyper generator then dropping out 99 LY from anything is a very bad thing because you're no more able to fix the generator but now if it refuses to work you're centuries of n-space travel from anybody who can help you and there's no way to call for help. So you run out of resources and die.


If there's some emergency with the ship that doesn't involve the hyper generator then dropping out of hyper in the middle of nowhere in deep interstellar space doesn't help you fix it; doesn't gives you any extra resources, and delays you in reaching someone who could help you. Best case you either had the resources to fix it, or enough time to reach help even with this pointless detour -- in which case at least leaving hyper didn't make things worse; but that's your best case.

If you don't have an emergency then the bad bit about leaving hyper is it significantly delays your arrival because no only do you spend however long you're taking a break making effectively zero progress towards your goal, but you've thrown away over 97% of the velocity you'd built up so once you reenter hyper you've also got to spend those hours again working up to your cruising speed.

Honorvese starships aren't one-man crews. Even Honor's little non-hyper runabout has a 2nd crewman, Wayne Alexander the flight engineer. Her hyper-capable yacht probably has at least a 5 man crew (I'd guess 3 able to stand bridge watch, including a licensed captain, plus an engineer and at least one engineering rating). So a ship in hyper doesn't need to pull over when one person gets tired - they carry enough crew that you stand reasonable watches so your watch should be over before you're too tired to 'drive'; and if for some reason you can't last that long you'd call for another crew member to relieve you. (Not that there should be all that much for to do during most bridge watches in hyper; the ship's almost certainly going to on autopilot anyway; sailing along on its days to weeks long journey to the next stop)

That was in response to me supporting my theory of the existence of those codified laws that you question. I said that they loosely or approximately support the notion of a contiguous zone. I was explaining why I felt some ship could or might have an emergency that causes it to just drop out of hyper wherever said ship happens to be at the time. And I tried to specifically explain why I felt those codified laws are related to our very own contiguous zone, because the airspace over a contiguous zone is neutral, but the sea below belongs to the related nation. I don't see very much difference in a stealth plane which is freely flying over the neutral airspace of any contiguous zone falling out of the sky (dropping out of hyper because of a malfunctioning plane) down onto the territorial waters which is part of a contiguous zone. (I should have also concluded that that ship could actually be a warship, by the way.)

I also tried to apply that same excuse to a nomad if he is actually caught squatting on “private property.”

But the goalposts have always been the same. And that is in the end zone where a nomad is just trying to find solace, a place to rest his head for a day, a month, or whatever. He is a nomad, “next to homeless and sleeping in his car.” Parking lots are notorious for not being understanding in these cases. So, I don't see why a nomad can't pull over in the middle of the big huge Hitchhiker’s galaxy and lay his head. Or he and his family. A dispatch boat has a crew of, what, one to three people? A small family living out of their car? Well that has never happened before.

I always try to see real life and the reality that you would see on a closer inspection under the skin of discussions to obtain a microscopic world-view. I am good at projecting real life atop of discussions; the reality of real life that exists outside of the box and not just on paper. That uncanny practice of mine seems to consistently rub many of you the wrong way. You expect that because the author has given enormous consideration to his universe that it somehow ceases to represent the “real world” inside the world that must exist even inside of sci-fi. The human nature of humanity with all of its foibles.

But a hyper capable yacht is better suited for a nomad or even a family of nomads who may have become disgruntled by the system, or simply dispirited by the politics of governments and want to live off the grid. Not like that has ever happened before either. At any rate, I am questioning whether it is possible to live off the grid as much as possible and not be connected to any government.

In the TV series ‘Lost in Space’ the Robinson family were all trained to do a specific job and some of those jobs and talents overlapped. I am not talking about uneducated people simply because they are nomads, but an affluent family of people with means, abilities and simply a desire to disconnect and see as much of the galaxy as possible while racking up frequent flyer miles.

penny wrote:Why is dropping out of hyper in intersteller space 99 light years away from civilization a bad thing? As long as the ship is fully functioning it can just get back into hyper after a good night's sleep. Instead of having some cop knocking on your window and shining a light on you because you pulled over to get some rest while driving all night long.

Why not travel a few minutes longer and be totally away from any troublesome laws? As Douglas Adams wrote in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

penny wrote:And that is in the end zone where a nomad is just trying to find solace, a place to rest his head for a day, a month, or whatever. He is a nomad, “next to homeless and sleeping in his car.” Parking lots are notorious for not being understanding in these cases. So, I don't see why a nomad can't pull over in the middle of the big huge Hitchhiker’s galaxy and lay his head. Or he and his family. A dispatch boat has a crew of, what, one to three people? A small family living out of their car? Well that has never happened before.

We only have detailed info on one dispatch boat, but I went and checked and Jayne's says the Facteur-class DB has a crew of 30 (Captain, 7 other officers, 22 enlisted)

These aren't little ships. Even a comparatively little dispatch boat, about as small as you can make a hyper-capable vessel, is still bigger than a WWII battleship (which had crews of well over a thousand)

Facteur-class
Mass: 38,000 tons
Length: 294 m
Beam: 31 m

South Dakota-class battleship
Mass: 35,980 tons
Length: 207 m
Beam: 33 m

Though, to be fair, a DB is going to be overcrewed in some departments compared to a merchantman. The DB uses the highest end compensator, rad shielding, and hyper generator systems they can get their hands on in order to reduce transit times to the minimum possible; and those military grade components are much higher maintenance than their cheap and cheerful merchant grade counterparts (which are designed for reliability and economy over performance).

So the DB would need more engineering crew to keep up with those higher maintenance requirements. (OTOH the freighter likely deck handling/cargo/supercargo crew that the DB doesn't require, plus being far larger which somewhat offsets that; FWIW SITS gives the crew of a 1,927,000 ton freighter as 22-35 so in the same ballpark as the DB despite being 50x the size)

Not having checked crew numbers before my prior post I probably significantly underestimated the crew size of Honor's hyper-yacht. Still, wouldn't be surprised if it had a smaller crew than a DB despite massing nearly twice; as much as it'd have the lower maintenance merchant grade propulsion.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Why is dropping out of hyper in intersteller space 99 light years away from civilization a bad thing? As long as the ship is fully functioning it can just get back into hyper after a good night's sleep. Instead of having some cop knocking on your window and shining a light on you because you pulled over to get some rest while driving all night long.

Why not travel a few minutes longer and be totally away from any troublesome laws? As Douglas Adams wrote in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

That's okay by me. Jonathan needs to field that question. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that a mistake in astrogation could land you way out in the boondocks. He also seems to be implying that intentionally trying to drop out of hyper just outside the fence of some system's property isn't exactly easy. I didn't think it would legally be a problem since legally the ship is still outside of the system. But Thinksmarkedly disagrees with the “hand in the face of a sibling” comment. And I see his point. But like I said, militaries toe the line all the time. “We did not cross the 37th parallel.”

Which, BTW Jonathan, also goes to motive as to why those codified laws would be needed, if systems are so anal as to want to cause problems just because you are “in his face.” Shit happens and excrement excretes.

Anyway, I didn't even think any detector could see a hyper footprint that is outside the system. And I assumed that a ship outside of a system would not be discovered. Especially with all possible systems shut down.

But yeah, far enough away from any laws and the possibility of a cop shining his lights through your car window is the objective.

penny wrote:Anyway, I didn't even think any detector could see a hyper footprint that is outside the system. And I assumed that a ship outside of a system would not be discovered. Especially with all possible systems shut down.

Manticore's gravitic array detected the hyper transition by the Sharks in SftS and they were one light month out; you cannot have "all possible systems shut down" in order to make a transition, the hyper-generator has to operate.

tlb wrote:Manticore's gravitic array detected the hyper transition by the Sharks in SftS and they were one light month out; you cannot have "all possible systems shut down" in order to make a transition, the hyper-generator has to operate.

So if you dropped in close enough to a developed system so you could buy your life's conveniences and luxuries, their defence systems will nave noticed your arrival and will begin to ask questions. Whether legally they can do anything about you if you're a light-hour away from any inhabited settlement is unknown.

If you instead wanted not to be noticed, you'd need to go to a system without any detection arrays. At which point there's no reason to drop out 6 light-hours away, aside from the legalities. Said system won't have much trade and won't be able to do much about you anyway. In fact, they may be a tax-haven or might very well grant you tax asylum if you buy a few things from their local commerce (or grease a few palms).

As for dropping out a light-year away from anything or more, sure, you can do that. Not on a yacht: those are probably fitted for reasonably long voyages, but not for living indefinitely. But I'm sure a wealthy eccentric could get their hands on a surplus colony ship, load up their supporters and/or harem and make off for parts unknown. It probably has and still does happen in the HV, but hasn't been part of the story.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:Manticore's gravitic array detected the hyper transition by the Sharks in SftS and they were one light month out; you cannot have "all possible systems shut down" in order to make a transition, the hyper-generator has to operate.

So if you dropped in close enough to a developed system so you could buy your life's conveniences and luxuries, their defence systems will nave noticed your arrival and will begin to ask questions. Whether legally they can do anything about you if you're a light-hour away from any inhabited settlement is unknown.

If you instead wanted not to be noticed, you'd need to go to a system without any detection arrays. At which point there's no reason to drop out 6 light-hours away, aside from the legalities. Said system won't have much trade and won't be able to do much about you anyway. In fact, they may be a tax-haven or might very well grant you tax asylum if you buy a few things from their local commerce (or grease a few palms).

As for dropping out a light-year away from anything or more, sure, you can do that. Not on a yacht: those are probably fitted for reasonably long voyages, but not for living indefinitely. But I'm sure a wealthy eccentric could get their hands on a surplus colony ship, load up their supporters and/or harem and make off for parts unknown. It probably has and still does happen in the HV, but hasn't been part of the story.

I should have made that clearer. Detected after it has long exited hyper and is sitting quietly with all occupants sleeping with no outside lights running. I don't suppose there will be a huge chance of a collision from another vessel.

I used to pull into the parking lot of some store and rest when driving and the overwhelming need for sleep hit me. Like right after exam week when I am already mentally drained and have been existing off of intestinal fortitude and little sleep for the entire week before traveling back to my hometown. I was driving a Porsche 924 at the time. It was a hatchback with a lot of back window that seemed to spread the rays of a cop's flashlight in ways that made it appear like a bright sun. But I refused to pull over on the side of the road and take a chance of getting rear-ended by a drunk driver or someone inattentive. Yet, the advice is to pull over when feeling drowsy.

Truck stops were a merciful sight, but few and far between. It'd be nice if there were truck stops along well traveled routes in the HV.


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penny wrote:I should have made that clearer. Detected after it has long exited hyper and is sitting quietly with all occupants sleeping with no outside lights running. I don't suppose there will be a huge chance of a collision from another vessel.

If the hyper-transition is detected and the ship does not move, then the position is still known and can be detected by active means (such as radar). The Sharks were not seen because they moved away using the spider drive.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:So if you dropped in close enough to a developed system so you could buy your life's conveniences and luxuries, their defence systems will nave noticed your arrival and will begin to ask questions. Whether legally they can do anything about you if you're a light-hour away from any inhabited settlement is unknown.

If you are truly a nomad, what recourse do you have?

Badges? We ain’t got no badges! We don’t need no badges!
I don’t have to show you any stinking badges!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I should have made that clearer. Detected after it has long exited hyper and is sitting quietly with all occupants sleeping with no outside lights running. I don't suppose there will be a huge chance of a collision from another vessel.

If the hyper-transition is detected and the ship does not move, then the position is still known and can be detected by active means (such as radar). The Sharks were not seen because they moved away using the spider drive.

I was relying on an emergence far enough outside of the target system that wouldn't be detected. Which would vary with system. A nomad should be well informed. Since he lives by the emergence.