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pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet

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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by Captain Golding   » Wed May 21, 2025 4:55 am

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Talk of using Grav Plates in a Grave wave might not be valid - We understand that the problem with Grave Wave's is that they are Turbulent - so it's not the ships acceleration that needs to be compensated so much as the accelerations caused by the Gravitic Forces acting on the ship in the Wave. So any external accelerations caused by the Grave Wave Turbulence that exceed the Grav Plates ratings is going to putty the crew - the Shear forces must be huge and the larger the vessel the greater the issue - forces on the front won't be the same as the back. The Sails by interacting with the Grave Wave and the Compensator can work to damp out some of this. Grav Plates I suspect would lack that ability.

What we don't know is how Spider Ships work in Hyper and especially in Grav Waves. If the LD's don't have the ability to navigate Grav Waves then they are little more than Stealth Monitors. Does pulling on the Alpha Wall work if you are in the Delta Band ? If they need to have standard Sails and Compensator's on top of the Spider Drive then it just may prove that the ships have to give up to much space to drives vs armament to be successful long term. They allready lack the ability to use a strong wedge to limit their defense arcs.

Now a Spider LAC as a recon ship or even SAR vessel has promise but would still be limited by tactical speed - it would quickly fall behind any current fleet and end out of position.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 21, 2025 8:30 am

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Relax wrote:
Theemile wrote:My current house (Built 5 years ago) was built out of flat modules built in a factory and assembled onsite - each wall module was ~8'x10', with the framing, cladding, windows, doors and insulation all installed at the factory. A floor was built out of pre-made manufactured trusses at the site(over the foundation/basement, then the first floor modules were assembled and connected to the deck, followed by each floor then the pre-made trusses and the roof. I was told the method saved ~1.5 months of construction on site - the build still took ~9 months to complete for a 4,000 sq foot house, even though every major part was constructed in a factory and just "assembled" onsite.


Cool. Wow is this comment timely. Looking at building a modular prefab house myself. Talking to different people and most want to ship in 13ft wide sections, but the road into myplace is NOT friendly to big rig trucks. ALso, I am willing to do ALL the work myself.

Who did you go with? I am looking at Montana area to build. What options available? Could you order say... an Aframe wood timber framed 2 story version? Already building a post and beam garage/shop. Just got done buying the solar components and about to do assembly myself.

The best part? No cell service where I am going. Ah: PEACE and QUIET! Have elk, deer, bear, turkey everywhere and have already seen all of the above. Supposedly there is a wolf pack in the area and I might have heard them VERY briefly early in the morning last time I was there.

Thanks!


Miranda Homes in mid Ohio. Unfortunately I had a job move right at the start of Covid and we bought a spec built house that had just been completed and didn't get to configure it. But my house was the 3rd in the development, and I got to watch the other 200 get built around me. I'll look through the paperwork and see if I can find the module builder for you.

I envy you in the solitude. The only reason we bought this house is it backs to a 40 acre wood, so we get to enjoy watching the local deer and the rest of the wild life parade through our lawn - we even have a Bald Eagle nest about 200 feet in the woods this spring. The front is suburbia, the back is the woods. Everyone who visits us looks out the 2 story back picture windows and says "Oh, that's why you bought this house".
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by tlb   » Wed May 21, 2025 9:49 am

tlb
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Captain Golding wrote:Talk of using Grav Plates in a Grave wave might not be valid - We understand that the problem with Grave Wave's is that they are Turbulent - so it's not the ships acceleration that needs to be compensated so much as the accelerations caused by the Gravitic Forces acting on the ship in the Wave. So any external accelerations caused by the Grave Wave Turbulence that exceed the Grav Plates ratings is going to putty the crew - the Shear forces must be huge and the larger the vessel the greater the issue - forces on the front won't be the same as the back. The Sails by interacting with the Grave Wave and the Compensator can work to damp out some of this. Grav Plates I suspect would lack that ability.

What we don't know is how Spider Ships work in Hyper and especially in Grav Waves. If the LD's don't have the ability to navigate Grav Waves then they are little more than Stealth Monitors. Does pulling on the Alpha Wall work if you are in the Delta Band ? If they need to have standard Sails and Compensator's on top of the Spider Drive then it just may prove that the ships have to give up to much space to drives vs armament to be successful long term. They allready lack the ability to use a strong wedge to limit their defense arcs.

Now a Spider LAC as a recon ship or even SAR vessel has promise but would still be limited by tactical speed - it would quickly fall behind any current fleet and end out of position.

According to "The Universe of Honor Harrington" in More Than Honor, the section entitled "(1) Background (General)" states the following:
The interstellar drawbacks of impeller drive became quickly and disastrously clear to Beowulf's shipbuilders, and for several decades it seemed likely that the new drive would be limited solely to interplanetary traffic. In 1273 pd, however, the scientist Adrienne Warshawski of Old Terra recognized a previously unsuspected FTL implication of the new technology. Prior to her Fleetwing tests in that year, all efforts to employ it in hyper-space had ended in unmitigated disaster, but Dr. Warshawski found a way around the problem. She had already invented a new device capable of scanning hyper-space for grav waves and wave shifts within five light-seconds of a starship (to this day, all grav scanners are known as "warshawskis" by starship crews), which made it possible to use impeller drive between hyper-space grav waves, since they could now be seen and avoided.

That, alone, would have been sufficient to earn Warshawski undying renown, but beneficial as it was, its significance paled beside her next leap forward, for in working out her detector, Dr. Warshawski had penetrated far more deeply into the nature of the grav wave phenomenon than any of her predecessors, and she suddenly realized that it would be possible to build an impeller drive which could be reconfigured at will to project its grav waves at right angles to the generating vessel. There was no converging effect to move a pocket of normal-space, but these perpendicular grav fields could be brought into phase with the grav wave, thus eliminating the interference effect between impellers and the wave. More, the new fields would stabilize a vessel relative to the grav wave, allowing a transition into it which eliminated the traditional dangers grav shear presented to the ship's physical structure. In effect, the alterations she made to Fleetwing to produce her "alpha nodes" provided the ship with gigantic, immaterial sails: circular, plate-like gravity bands over two hundred kilometers in diameter. Coupled with her grav wave detector to plot and "read" grav waves, they would permit a starship to literally "set her sails" and use the focused radiation hurtling along hyper-space's naturally occurring grav waves to derive incredible accelerations.

Not only that, but the interface between sail and natural grav wave produced an eddy of preposterously high energy levels which could be "siphoned off" to power the starship. Effectively, once a starship "set sail" it drew sufficient power to maintain and trim its sails and also for every other energy requirement and could thus shut down its onboard power plants until the time came to leave hyper-space. A Warshawski Sail hypership thus had no need for reaction mass, required very little fuel mass, and could sustain high rates of acceleration indefinitely, which meant that the velocity loss associated with "cracking the wall" between hyper bands could be regained and that use of the upper bands was no longer impractical.

--skip --

The Warshawski Sail could be adjusted by decreasing the strength of the field, thus allowing a greater proportion of the grav wave's power to "leak" through it, to hold acceleration down to something a human body could tolerate, but the old bugaboo of "g forces" remained a problem for the next century or so.

Then, in 1384 pd, a physicist by the name of Shigematsu Radhakrishnan added another major breakthrough in the form of the inertial compensator
. The compensator turned the grav wave (natural or artificial) associated with a vessel into a sort of "inertial sump," dumping the inertial forces of acceleration into the grav wave and thus exempting the vessel's crew from the g forces associated with acceleration. Within the limits of its efficiency, it completely eliminated g force, placing an accelerating vessel in a permanent state of internal zero-gee, but its capacity to damp inertia was directly proportional to the power of the grav wave around it and inversely proportional to both the volume of the field and the mass of the vessel about which it was generated.
So for over a century, before the compensator was created, ships were traveling in gravity waves within hyperspace. It was not until 1502 pd that contra-gravity was invented. ibid:
In 1581 pd, however, Dr. Ignatius Peterson, building on the work of the Anderson Corporation, Dr. Warshawski, and Dr. Radhakrishnan, mated countergrav technology with that of the impeller drive and created the first generator with sufficiently precise incremental control to produce an internal gravity field for a ship, thus permitting vessels with inertial compensators to be designed with a permanent up/down orientation
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 21, 2025 9:57 am

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Captain Golding wrote:Talk of using Grav Plates in a Grave wave might not be valid - We understand that the problem with Grave Wave's is that they are Turbulent - so it's not the ships acceleration that needs to be compensated so much as the accelerations caused by the Gravitic Forces acting on the ship in the Wave. So any external accelerations caused by the Grave Wave Turbulence that exceed the Grav Plates ratings is going to putty the crew - the Shear forces must be huge and the larger the vessel the greater the issue - forces on the front won't be the same as the back. The Sails by interacting with the Grave Wave and the Compensator can work to damp out some of this. Grav Plates I suspect would lack that ability.

What we don't know is how Spider Ships work in Hyper and especially in Grav Waves. If the LD's don't have the ability to navigate Grav Waves then they are little more than Stealth Monitors. Does pulling on the Alpha Wall work if you are in the Delta Band ? If they need to have standard Sails and Compensator's on top of the Spider Drive then it just may prove that the ships have to give up to much space to drives vs armament to be successful long term. They allready lack the ability to use a strong wedge to limit their defense arcs.

Now a Spider LAC as a recon ship or even SAR vessel has promise but would still be limited by tactical speed - it would quickly fall behind any current fleet and end out of position.
You might have a point about turbulence, though I'd been assuming that if you kept the acceleration low under sail that you'd be okay. And the quote tlb shared about pre-compensator ships with sails seems to bear that out.


We do know that spider ships are capable of traveling through hyper -- the Sharks reached Manticore and Grayson that way and while the Ghosts were snuck in in a freighter I believe both classes hypered out when done with their parts of the attack. But you're right that we don't know specific details of how, or what extra limitations they might have there. Though I presume that if in the Delta bands the spider would be grabbing onto the Epsilon wall (the next higher wall), rather than the Alpha wall.

RFC has strongly implied that the Spider ships can also use a wormhole; but it is less clear whether they can enter a grav wave. (We've had debates on that, partly based on the fact that Grayson sits within a small wave and we know Spider ships got there)
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Wed May 21, 2025 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by tlb   » Wed May 21, 2025 10:45 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:We do know that spider ships are capable of traveling through hyper -- the Spiders reached Manticore and Grayson that way and while the Ghosts were snuck in in a freighter I believe both classes hypered out when done with their parts of the attack.

Also we have text that the tactic of Sharks tractoring together into two groups when making the transition to normal space, to simulate a known false positive signal of the gravity sensor array, was first tested by the Ghosts. From chapter 51 of Storm from the Shadows:
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed.
PS: Any ship that can use a wormhole, can also enter a gravity wave; our current knowledge is that this requires sails, we wait to read what the author intends.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 21, 2025 11:01 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:We do know that spider ships are capable of traveling through hyper -- the Spiders reached Manticore and Grayson that way and while the Ghosts were snuck in in a freighter I believe both classes hypered out when done with their parts of the attack.

Also we have text that the tactic of Sharks tractoring together into two groups when making the transition to normal space, to simulate a known false positive signal of the gravity sensor array, was first tested by the Ghosts. From chapter 51 of Storm from the Shadows:
This maneuver had been tested against the Mesa System's sensor arrays by crews using the early Ghost-class ships even before the first of the Shark-class prototypes had ever been laid down, and Task Force One had practiced it over a hundred times once the mission had been okayed.

Oops, yes. I meant to say Sharks and instead said Spiders
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by tlb   » Wed May 21, 2025 11:09 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Oops, yes. I meant to say Sharks and instead said Spiders
I have been known to call it the Shark-drive.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 21, 2025 11:47 am

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tlb wrote:It was not until 1502 pd that contra-gravity was invented. ibid:
In 1581 pd, however, Dr. Ignatius Peterson, building on the work of the Anderson Corporation, Dr. Warshawski, and Dr. Radhakrishnan, mated countergrav technology with that of the impeller drive and created the first generator with sufficiently precise incremental control to produce an internal gravity field for a ship, thus permitting vessels with inertial compensators to be designed with a permanent up/down orientation


Quick note that the 1581 date has been retconned. The refit that HMS Casey CL-01 got in the late 1530s and early 1540s installed not only rail launchers for the missiles but grav plates. Casey, unlike all the other ships in the RMN at the time, had permanent up/down gravity. The grav technology was probably well-known at the time because Graf von Basaltberg remarked on the tactical use of the rail launchers for the missiles, but offered no comment on the grav plates. We know that SMS Friedrich der Grosse did not have them (yet). My guess is that he simply didn't see much of a tactical or strategic advantage to comment on something that wasn't that much of a novelty. I'm also sure there were detractors saying that having the core of the ship under zero gravity, where people could propel themselves fast with arms and legs, in 3D, was better than having people running around during battle.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by tlb   » Wed May 21, 2025 12:06 pm

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tlb wrote:It was not until 1502 pd that contra-gravity was invented. ibid:
In 1581 pd, however, Dr. Ignatius Peterson, building on the work of the Anderson Corporation, Dr. Warshawski, and Dr. Radhakrishnan, mated countergrav technology with that of the impeller drive and created the first generator with sufficiently precise incremental control to produce an internal gravity field for a ship, thus permitting vessels with inertial compensators to be designed with a permanent up/down orientation
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Quick note that the 1581 date has been retconned. The refit that HMS Casey CL-01 got in the late 1530s and early 1540s installed not only rail launchers for the missiles but grav plates. Casey, unlike all the other ships in the RMN at the time, had permanent up/down gravity. The grav technology was probably well-known at the time because Graf von Basaltberg remarked on the tactical use of the rail launchers for the missiles, but offered no comment on the grav plates. We know that SMS Friedrich der Grosse did not have them (yet). My guess is that he simply didn't see much of a tactical or strategic advantage to comment on something that wasn't that much of a novelty. I'm also sure there were detractors saying that having the core of the ship under zero gravity, where people could propel themselves fast with arms and legs, in 3D, was better than having people running around during battle.

Interesting, but it still means that for over a century space craft traveled with a zero-gee environment, even within wormholes or gravity waves.
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Re: pd 1924 - Shape of Beowulf's fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed May 21, 2025 1:04 pm

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tlb wrote:Interesting, but it still means that for over a century space craft traveled with a zero-gee environment, even within wormholes or gravity waves.

Didn't (most of?) those ships have rotational gravity?
I seem to recall the rotational hab sections having to get spun down and locked for combat.

If so, at least the crews of long haul freighters or long deployment warships wouldn't have been subjected to months of zero-g without a break. Many crew jobs would require working in the zero-g sections - but at minimum kitchens, mess rooms, and berthing should have been in spin gravity sections.
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