Guns, Guns Guns

The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

Another of my more or less off topic post, sort of.

Works wonderfully from what you say in Australia. How's it work in Mexico?

Culture does not equal culture. People sort of equal people.

Just curious. How many illegal immigrants are there is Australia or for that matter Sweden? I just ask because if you are an illegal immigrant it kind of shows your value of the laws of the land you are migrating to. For the US minimum estimate is ~3% or more. Or how often do you exceed the posted speed limit. Here it is more or less a suggestion. Another indication of the value of a law to the average person.

Or how many solar energy projects in Australia are stopped or made more expensive because they need to move desert turtles or the like (at $55k a pop).

Sort of like the third world includes England, France, Greece, Ireland, Spain which was news to me. Not sure if the Ukraine is considered third world.

Then again is Iran? The PBS segment from Saturday would make me think not. Then again they are capable of enriching nuclear fuels another check against that third world block.

Or maybe for getting people of this planet would require all of them to have riots after all the only three nations that have done it in the past have been the US, China and The Soviet Union. Really can't count Russia as they are using USSR tech.

Another disjointed post, My Apologies.

T2M

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

One of the lessons of Rodney King riots is that there are things that will incite large groups of people to violence. When large scale violence manifests, the follow on lesson continues, it is better to be armed than unarmed.

Why not arm the teachers? The last High school shooting in Colorado impacted a member of my church pretty directly. The shooter shot the young lady and very soon after an armed resource officer caught up with him. The kid shot himself pretty soon after seeing the officer. That resource officer was an armed guard the High School kept around whenever the school was in session. Had the armed guard been present when the young lady was shot, that might have turned out differently. Then again it might not have. Regardless the proximity of the armed guard reduced the number of people killed.

As for broader gun bans, please consider Chicago and D.C. Strict gun laws, high rates of murders. Are there other factors at play for these cities? Yes there are. Taken all together, guns in the possession of a generally law abiding populace will deter violent crimes.

I will add that I agree with the sentiment of your post. I too wish guns were unnecessary. I do not agree with the conclusion of your post, that they harm more than they help.

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

Since I have the FBI stats on Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted going back to 1960, I will amuse myself by challenging you to cite actual incidents to confirm your statistic on the number of police officers killed in Wisconsin.

I would refer you to a well researched article that cast doubt on the presumption that the lack of mass shootings was a consequence of the weapons ban.


http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php ... 27&EXT=pdf

New Zealand also had zero mass shootings after the ban was imposed in Australia even though New Zealand did not impose a similar ban.

IMHO, improvements in mental health care which contributed to reduced suicides was a factor.

In the US, the lack of effective mental health care combined with cultural inhibitions that discourage suicide are a major factor contributing to mass shootings.

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

PeterZ wrote:I don't dispute the full auto might only have a marginal impact over the same gun in a semi- automatic. That advantage no matter how small might come in handy in that final rush if not scare the mob after the initial assault.

Conversely, in full-auto (especially with a rifle rather than something heavier) you're goig to spend more time controlling the weapon, I question whether it actually gives an advantage.

Its illegal but I would prefer the automatic rifle to be legal rather than Mary Jane.

Mary Jane?

thinkstoomuch wrote:Just curious. How many illegal immigrants are there is Australia or for that matter Sweden? I just ask because if you are an illegal immigrant it kind of shows your value of the laws of the land you are migrating to. For the US minimum estimate is ~3% or more. Or how often do you exceed the posted speed limit. Here it is more or less a suggestion. Another indication of the value of a law to the average person.

Because someone breaks a law - especially one seen, rightly or wrongly, as "victimless" - it does not follow he or she equally dsiregard all laws. Is an habitual speeder more likely to engage in first-degree murder?

Daryl wrote:Couple of points to consider. Since we banned semi autos (full autos were always illegal here) we haven't had any mass shootings, however we have had several deliberate mass burnings in either bushfires or hostels.
In a military situation soldiers are trained to use their assault weapon in semi auto mode as it is normally more effective that way, giving time to aim and not having the muzzle rise that full auto causes. Full auto is reserved for repelling human wave attacks.

One quibble Daryl, we weren't trained to use full auto only for human wave attacks: even then, you'd be wasting ammo that rapid single shots could do more damage with. We ARE trained to use full auto at very close range, when there is no time whatsoever to aim; ie, Trench clearing, building clearance, etc. Even then, we are trained to use single shots if there is time.

namelessfly wrote:Of course a shotgun or rifle with a tube magazine has an effectively unlimited ammo capacity.

Very big generalisation there Namelessfly; While a tube fed can be topped up at any point, reloading from an empty tube is FAR more time consuming than reloading a magazine. Plus, a magazine, being bigger, is far easier to put in a weapon than individual rounds in a feed ramp, especially when your pumped full of adrenaline.

Eyal wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't dispute the full auto might only have a marginal impact over the same gun in a semi- automatic. That advantage no matter how small might come in handy in that final rush if not scare the mob after the initial assault.

Conversely, in full-auto (especially with a rifle rather than something heavier) you're goig to spend more time controlling the weapon, I question whether it actually gives an advantage.

Its illegal but I would prefer the automatic rifle to be legal rather than Mary Jane.

Mary Jane?

Mary Jane is marijuana in English. Maria Juana...Mary Jane. I learned the slang a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. My wonderful State legalized it beginning this year.

The specifics on which fully automatic weapon is preferable to me depends on many things. An M1A, AR-10 automatic variant might be. The AR-15/M-16 version is likely not going to be too heavy. I would prefer to choose rather than have the option dictated to me.