Guns, Guns Guns

Annachie, I'm going to have to back up nameless on this one. Not only where there several mass shootings world wide in a fairly close time frame around the Port Arthur Massacre, but he is correct in that New Zealand, which has very similar culture to Australia, (after all, it seems like half of em live here!), did not impose the restrictions that were rammed through in the wake of the massacre.

In regards to the massacre itself, something that is often overlooked is that the weapons that were purchased by Martin Bryant were purchased illegally anyway! He did not have a firearms license, and given his mental health would not have qualified for one in the first place! Sadly, something politicians seem to forget is that criminals, by definition, do not obey the law!
If the government had spent the money it did on the buyback scheme on checking up and enforcing the already existing laws regarding firearms sales, they would have been much more effective.

namelessfly wrote:I would refer you to a well researched article that cast doubt on the presumption that the lack of mass shootings was a consequence of the weapons ban.


http://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php ... 27&EXT=pdf

New Zealand also had zero mass shootings after the ban was imposed in Australia even though New Zealand did not impose a similar ban.

IMHO, improvements in mental health care which contributed to reduced suicides was a factor.

In the US, the lack of effective mental health care combined with cultural inhibitions that discourage suicide are a major factor contributing to mass shootings.

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

Couple of links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthu ... stralia%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant

Eyal wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't dispute the full auto might only have a marginal impact over the same gun in a semi- automatic. That advantage no matter how small might come in handy in that final rush if not scare the mob after the initial assault.

Conversely, in full-auto (especially with a rifle rather than something heavier) you're goig to spend more time controlling the weapon, I question whether it actually gives an advantage.

Its illegal but I would prefer the automatic rifle to be legal rather than Mary Jane.

Mary Jane?

"Mary Jane" is slang for Marijuanna.

Obama recently commented that he favors legalization of marijuanna, claiming that it is less harmful than alcohol. Given his membership in "The Chum Gang" at the Punaho school in Hawaii, he no doubt considers himself as proof that even heavy use of Marijuanna is not harmful.

I would argue that Obama is proof the heavy use of Marijuanna IS harmful.

Of course I also cite the BATF as proof that guns and booze should not mix.

Couple of links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthu ... stralia%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant

This individual clearly had long standing mental issues. Nothing would stop him. When firearms ceased to work for him he resorted to arson. Had firearms been unavailable he would have just burnt down as many buildings as he could before he got caught.

To me it sounds like less of a firearms availability problem than a how do we treat dangerous mental patients problem. It looks like Australia has some of the same problems in that area as does the US.

I think this address the root cause of most mass shootings all over the world. And few (if any) national-level politicians (at least in the USA) want to discuss it nor do any of them seem willing to even try to fix that issue.

namelessfly wrote:IMHO, improvements in mental health care which contributed to reduced suicides was a factor.

In the US, the lack of effective mental health care combined with cultural inhibitions that discourage suicide are a major factor contributing to mass shootings.

Donnachaidh wrote:I think this address the root cause of most mass shootings all over the world. And few (if any) national-level politicians (at least in the USA) want to discuss it nor do any of them seem willing to even try to fix that issue.

namelessfly wrote:IMHO, improvements in mental health care which contributed to reduced suicides was a factor.

In the US, the lack of effective mental health care combined with cultural inhibitions that discourage suicide are a major factor contributing to mass shootings.

Of course the US is not necessarily derelict compared to other countries. Mass murderers often commit suicide and even those who do not kill themselves commit their attacks with the expectation that the police will kill them. "Suicide by Cop" is often an excuse for trigger happy cops but it is a real phenomenon. Most countries in Europe and Asia have suicide rates much higher than the US. Perhaps their angry and distraught are subtly encouraged to just kill themselves without taking anyone with them? All the psychiatric drugs that are prescribed in the US that are KNOWN to have dangerous side effects and are so often associated with mass shootings do not help.

Eyal wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't dispute the full auto might only have a marginal impact over the same gun in a semi- automatic. That advantage no matter how small might come in handy in that final rush if not scare the mob after the initial assault.

Conversely, in full-auto (especially with a rifle rather than something heavier) you're goig to spend more time controlling the weapon, I question whether it actually gives an advantage.

Its illegal but I would prefer the automatic rifle to be legal rather than Mary Jane.

Mary Jane?

"Chum" is another slang term for Marijuanna.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... drugs.html

If this report is true, it will have interesting implications:
DEPORT HER TO AMERICA !
The Rambo Granny of Melbourne , Australia
 

Gun-toting granny Ava Estelle, 81, was so ticked-off when two thugs raped her 18-year-old granddaughter that she tracked the unsuspecting ex-cons down... And shot off their testicles.
 
"The old lady spent a week hunting those men down and,when she found them, she took revenge on them in her own special way," said Melbourne police investigator Evan Delp.  Then she took a taxi to the nearest police station, laid the gun on the sergeant's desk and told him as calm as could be: "Those bastards will never rape anybody again, by God."
 
Cops say convicted rapist and robber Davis Furth , 33, lost both his penis and his testicles when outraged Ava opened fire with a 9-mm pistol in the hotel room where he and former prison cell mate Stanley Thomas, 29, were holed up.
 
The wrinkled avenger also blew Thomas' testicles to kingdom come, but doctors managed to save his mangled penis, police said. "The one guy, Thomas, didn't lose his manhood, but the doctor I talked to said he won't be using it the way he used to," Detective Delp told reporters. "Both men are still in pretty bad shape, but I think they're just happy to be alive after what they've been through."
 
The Rambo Granny swung into action August 21 after her granddaughter Debbie was carjacked and raped in broad daylight by two knife-wielding creeps in a section of town bordering on skid row.
 
"When I saw the look on my Debbie's face that night in the hospital, I decided I was going to go out and get those bastards myself 'cause I figured the Law would go easy on them,"' recalled the retired library worker. " And I wasn't scared of them, either - because I've got me a gun and I've been shootin' all my life. And I wasn't dumb enough to turn it in when the law changed about owning one."
 
So, using a police artist's sketch of the suspects and Debbie's description of the sickos, tough-as-nails Ava spent seven days prowling the wino-infested neighborhood where the crime took place till she spotted the ill-fated rapists entering their flophouse hotel.
 
"I knew it was them the minute I saw 'em, but I shot a picture of 'em anyway and took it back to Debbie and she said sure as hell, it was them," the oldster recalled... "So I went back to that hotel and found their room and knocked on the door, and the minute the big one opened the door, I shot 'em right square between the legs, right where it would really hurt 'em most, you know. Then I went in and shot the other one as he backed up pleading to me to spare him. Then I went down to the police station and turned myself in."
 
Now, baffled lawmen are trying to figure out exactly how to deal with the vigilante granny. "What she did was wrong, and she broke the law, but it is difficult to throw an 81-year-old woman in prison," Det. Delp said, "especially when 3 million people in the city want to nominate her for Mayor

namelessfly wrote:

Annachie wrote:The lesson from the Rodney King riots was not "Need automatic weapons", and it's a sad thing that people seem to think that.

The lesson from from various school shootings in not "arm the teachers"

Nor us the lesson from a guy shooting up a bar "Allow concealed weapons"

The lesson from Port Arthur was ban semi auto's (gross generalisation) and it worked. 1 masacre a year before the ban, zero since. Not average, actually zilch in about 15 or 16 years. Despite gangland wars and bikie gangs fighting each other.

Hell, this centuary in the state I live in we've had one cop killed by a firearm in the line of duty. Wisconsin (closest in pop size I think) has had something like 20.

Since I have the FBI stats on Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted going back to 1960, I will amuse myself by challenging you to cite actual incidents to confirm your statistic on the number of police officers killed in Wisconsin.

Officer down memorial page.

Illegal immigrant numbers are difficult to determine here in Aus because the PC police call them refugees and the two groups get blended, add to that the Navy either turns them around or dumps them in detention centers in other countries.

To be honest though the illegals seem generally law abiding. It's the refugees that were causing the violance for a while. Somalian youth gangs running riot, but a bit of an education campaign, and their own elders taking a firmer hand with their youth, oh and improved policing, made the situation a whole lot better/safer.
Not assault weapons though.

Societal breakdown is cured by fixing society, not over arming it.