Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

This dead horse has been beat a lot, but we all feel the need to give it just one more kick now don't we?? I'll accept that as combat units they are useless. So could they be used in terraforming? How many self propelled 7 million ton hammers does it take to push a planet into the liquid water zone?? I've not seen or heard of that level of planet building used in the story line, but if you can move that many tons of ship at those speeds it should be doable. Just a random thought.

fezman wrote:This dead horse has been beat a lot, but we all feel the need to give it just one more kick now don't we?? I'll accept that as combat units they are useless. So could they be used in terraforming? How many self propelled 7 million ton hammers does it take to push a planet into the liquid water zone?? I've not seen or heard of that level of planet building used in the story line, but if you can move that many tons of ship at those speeds it should be doable. Just a random thought.

Are you suggesting a shift in planetary orbit, or just heating the planet through impact KE?

Weird Harold wrote:
Because the best available medical facilities technology-wise happen to be in an orbiting warship?

Lol! I doubt that. We are not talking of the Enterprise orbiting over a non-space faring planet.

You can remove the medical facilities of a warship and set it up on a planet. There is no reason to maintain an obsolete ship in space just so you can use those facilities.

I thought of another use for them obsolete ships. Use them as cannon fodder during wormhole assaults.

Send them in with some programming to start shooting up forts in the other end of he wormholes to use up the defenders' ammo.

I know, if you do it you might just be warning them about your intentions. If you are really nasty, send a couple of them everyday, keep them on battle alert 24/7, tire them out and then when they are taking things easy or they are exhausted, send in your real battle fleet.

But if you really have no plans to invade, at least they now have the problem of what o do with all the wreckage floating around their wormhole termini.

As per RFC it is impossible to send a ship through a wormhole without at least a skeleton crew.

Rakhmamort wrote:I thought of another use for them obsolete ships. Use them as cannon fodder during wormhole assaults.

Send them in with some programming to start shooting up forts in the other end of he wormholes to use up the defenders' ammo.

I know, if you do it you might just be warning them about your intentions. If you are really nasty, send a couple of them everyday, keep them on battle alert 24/7, tire them out and then when they are taking things easy or they are exhausted, send in your real battle fleet.

But if you really have no plans to invade, at least they now have the problem of what o do with all the wreckage floating around their wormhole termini.

Rakhmamort wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Because the best available medical facilities technology-wise happen to be in an orbiting warship?

Lol! I doubt that. We are not talking of the Enterprise orbiting over a non-space faring planet.

No we're talking about a solarian medical facility (with a not insignificant number of admirals as patients) orbiting above a neobarb world that can't provide solarian quality medical care.

We're talking the equivalent of a US super carrier anchoring off-shore of a third world country and providing SAR, med-evac and hospital beds.

Rakhmamort wrote:You can remove the medical facilities of a warship and set it up on a planet. There is no reason to maintain an obsolete ship in space just so you can use those facilities.

The reason is called fusion reactors that are already online and powering your medical equipment.

The reason is called medical service today instead of six months from now after buildings are built or modified, equipment is moved, and power arranged.

The reason is called a Temporary Measure while equipment is moved from lesser ships and ground-side facilities are prepared.

And that's just the medical aspect of keeping a couple of captured ships in orbit and functional.

* Kornati still uses copper wires for communication.

* Nuncio only has video communications in the presidential palace.

That strongly suggests that neither of those two systems have the computer capacity to download the contents of an SD's databanks. If they do have the capacity, they don't have the bandwidth to make use of it.

Horace Harkness remarks on having a "decent machine shop" capable of making molycircs. I'd expect a Solarian SD to have comparable "machine shop" facilities; I would NOT expect the same of the poorer TQ systems.

Everyone talks blithely about "that equipment can be taken ground-side" without considering the wiring that connects everything together; wiring that is built into the structure of the ship.

What good does it do to take the CPU from the computer center and the terminals from all the compartments if you leave behind the power feeds and data line between CPU and terminals? How much time, trouble and money will go into either stripping out the kilometers of wiring and/or constructing new interconnection harnesses?

How closely are the communications suite and sensors interconnected with the main computer systems?

Hi Hutch,

My father quoted that to me when I was a kid in the early '60's, when it was apparently almost the slogan or motto of every American military professional school, certainly at the CGSC (Command and General Staff College) at Fort Leavenworth where he taught as both a Lt. Col. and Col.

The idea Tom Clancy invented it in the 1980's or quoted some marine general is laughable, though its too bad he's dead; he probably really knew who said it first rather than the ignorant references I've found so far online, the earliest attribution being Omar Bradley, which is ridiculous.

L

Hutch wrote:

kenl511 wrote:Otherwise, I agree with Theemile's signature.
Ain't there a line about professionals and logistics?

I think that you are thinking of:

Amateurs discuss tactics,.... Professional soldiers study logistics

-Supposedly attributed to Tom Clancy, but I think it has been around longer than that.

And I'm out...got some logistics to do...

Weird Harold wrote:No we're talking about a solarian medical facility (with a not insignificant number of admirals as patients) orbiting above a neobarb world that can't provide solarian quality medical care.

We're talking the equivalent of a US super carrier anchoring off-shore of a third world country and providing SAR, med-evac and hospital beds.

Have you actually thought this through? Have you actually spent a minute to think about how much good a very limited hospital with a couple hundred "beds" at most can do that is always an hour or three away from any incident that happens?

Basically, from where I'm sitting, the expense in setting this up (including the crew needs for these ships) isn't worth it when you can, for a fraction of the cost, ship just the medical equipment and a couple of trainers to get local personnel up to speed to a planet to set it up in a permanent facility.

It's not that the Talbott worlds can't use upgraded medical facilities, they sure can benefit from them, but the dire need you're imagining that needs to be addressed right now just isn't present.

The reason is called fusion reactors that are already online and powering your medical equipment.

The reason is called medical service today instead of six months from now after buildings are built or modified, equipment is moved, and power arranged.

The reason is called a Temporary Measure while equipment is moved from lesser ships and ground-side facilities are prepared.

Yeah, sorry, but the people in Talbott aren't dieing by the millions from preventable diseases right now (at least as far as we know), so there's certainly enough time to do this right and not rely on silly measures like the one you're proposing.

And that's just the medical aspect of keeping a couple of captured ships in orbit and functional.

* Kornati still uses copper wires for communication.

* Nuncio only has video communications in the presidential palace.

That strongly suggests that neither of those two systems have the computer capacity to download the contents of an SD's databanks. If they do have the capacity, they don't have the bandwidth to make use of it.

And despite that, they're not on the brink of complete societal collapse. Just because Grayson was using cathode ray screens and mechanical printers didn't mean their society was completely unlivable when Manticore made contact. These people are in a backwater compared to Manticore, yes. But at the same time, they don't need to be brought up to Manticoran standards over night.

The E wrote:Have you actually thought this through?

Yes, I have.

The E wrote:Have you actually spent a minute to think about how much good a very limited hospital with a couple hundred "beds" at most can do that is always an hour or three away from any incident that happens?

I['m not sure where you get the "hour or three" figure. I'm pretty sure that a contra-grav shuttle -- with minimal traffic control restrictions as an ambulance would have -- can reach an orbiting ship in 40 minutes from anywhere on the planet.

Whatever the time is, it is faster than a conventional ambulance to an equivalent trauma center for anything outside of the immediate vicinity -- ie any place where helicopter med-evac would be appropriate.

I'd have to research specific numbers, but I don't think there are many r/w trauma centers with "a couple hundred beds." What Nuncio or Dresden might have in the way of trauma centers or medical schools, but they are both noted as needing "modern health care."

The E wrote:Basically, from where I'm sitting, the expense in setting this up (including the crew needs for these ships) isn't worth it when you can, for a fraction of the cost, ship just the medical equipment and a couple of trainers to get local personnel up to speed to a planet to set it up in a permanent facility.

Where is Manticore going to get needed equipment or pay for it with the rebuilding of their entire Old Kingdom industrial infrastructure a major priority for equipment and funds?

You're probably still correct if medical support were all the captured ships could offer. Each SD would require about 1,000 personnel for a "harbor watch" to keep systems online -- NOT a full crew of 6,000+. Possibly a crew that is already maintaining "a harbor watch" pending disposition decisions.

That's too many people and expense to keep just an orbital trauma center in space. But the captured ships offer more than just a medical bay.

The E wrote:Yeah, sorry, but the people in Talbott aren't dieing by the millions from preventable diseases right now (at least as far as we know), so there's certainly enough time to do this right and not rely on silly measures like the one you're proposing.

Henry Kreitzman would disagree with you. He is described as missing several fingers because of lack of decent medical care.

People might not be dieing from preventable diseases, but there are a significant number dieing or being mutilated from accidents that might be saved

The E wrote:It's not that the Talbott worlds can't use upgraded medical facilities, they sure can benefit from them, but the dire need you're imagining that needs to be addressed right now just isn't present.

Again, it is NOT just the medical facilities that make the captured ships valuable to the Talbot Quadrant, it is ALL of the knowledge they contain.

The E wrote:These people are in a backwater compared to Manticore, yes. But at the same time, they don't need to be brought up to Manticoran standards over night.

Only a fool would expect to bring a system like Nuncio up to Manticore's standard in anything overnight.

On the other hand, starting to provide some of the promised assistance while struggling with rebuilding after the Yawata Strike has a lot of appeal.

Just one captured SLN SD can provide Solarian standard medical facilities, computer-guided career advancement courses for several hundred if not thousands of SLN career paths, Machine shops which can turn out most anything a modern society needs -- including more machine shops.

The ship's computers will contain repair manuals, operating instruction, training syllabi, and probably the equivalent of the library of congress -- plus news and entertainment up to the minute of the ship's last departure from a Solarian controlled system.

All of that equipment and computer support works where it is. There's no guarantee that it will work if removed or that the computers data will be useable by ground-side systems. It will take time and money to cannibalize anything and make it useful ground-side.

Why not make use of everything where you know it already works? Why not use what is available until more conventional resources are available or even assist in providing those conventional resources.

All of that is true of just one captured Solarian SD. How much more medical support and educational opportunity would there be from five to seven SDs and a dozen or so lesser ships?

The one major sticking point is using captured Solarian ships means convincing sufficient SLN POWs to give their parole and accept employment as harbor watch/maintenance crew and/or instructors.

On the other hand, starting to provide some of the promised assistance while struggling with rebuilding after the Yawata Strike has a lot of appeal.

Just one captured SLN SD can provide Solarian standard medical facilities, computer-guided career advancement courses for several hundred if not thousands of SLN career paths, Machine shops which can turn out most anything a modern society needs -- including more machine shops.

Your supposition that each SD is a complete industrial facility in a can is very likely wrong. These ships are not equipped to bootstrap a planetary economy, trying to use their shipboard repair facilities to act as manufacturing centers for entire planets is overestimating their capabilities by a LOT.

The ship's computers will contain repair manuals, operating instruction, training syllabi, and probably the equivalent of the library of congress -- plus news and entertainment up to the minute of the ship's last departure from a Solarian controlled system.

And the average freighter can carry all of that, and several million tons of cargo on top, all in a format more readily usable by a planet.

All of that equipment and computer support works where it is. There's no guarantee that it will work if removed or that the computers data will be useable by ground-side systems. It will take time and money to cannibalize anything and make it useful ground-side.

Or you cut out the middleman, buy stuff from Haven or the Andermani Empire, and ship it normally. That way, you don't have to reactivate a bunch of SDs, you get a lot of investments flowing back and forth between GA members, and you can put a few of those Freighters that Laocoon stranded to good use.

Why not make use of everything where you know it already works? Why not use what is available until more conventional resources are available or even assist in providing those conventional resources.

Why not indeed? Why not use ressources that are easily available and usable? Why go through all the trouble involved in trying to make Superdreadnoughts into something they aren't meant to be (or likely to be usable for), when the tools you actually need can be obtained through normal channels easily?


Let me recap: You want to
a) Use the medical facilities onboard these SDs to supplement local facilities.
b) Use the computer systems and training equipment on these SDs to supplement local schools
c) Use the onboard repair facilities to supplement local manufacturing capabilities.
d) Use the SLN POWs as crew for these ships with minimal supervision.

This scheme, to me, is a desperation measure applied to a situation that just isn't desperate. By comparison, what's wrong with buying the hardware and skillsets you need from Haven or the Andermani? I would suspect that the end result, while maybe a bit more expensive in the short term, will be much better in the long term, and be a much more visible and holistic benefit for being a GA/SEM member than a bunch of SLN SDs jury-rigged to provide a bit of relief that is so small as to be positively homeopathic?