Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jonathan_S and 26 guests

Battle of Manticore

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Amaroq   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:51 pm

Amaroq
Captain of the List

Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:39 pm
Location: Princess Anne, Maryland

Thanks for the clarification, Duckk. I didn't realize that Kuzak wasn't a fleet admiral as well. That seems weird given her seniority.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Duckk   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:54 pm

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4201
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

Uroboros wrote:I never understood why she didn't order all her ships to head for the terminus at "best speed". Send destroyers through until the cruisers get there, send cruisers until the battlecruisers arrive, send battlecruisers until the SDs make it. That would have made better use of transit capacity which was just sitting there unused until the fleet reached it, and provided much greater tactical flexibility at the other end too. They could have started by running off or destroying the Haven battlecruisers that were hanging around watching the Junction.


Honor wanted to send through a concentrated, capable force through. She didn't have a whole lot of Mk-16 capable ships, so sending any of the older screen would have been pretty pointless. By sending all of her modern CAs and BCs in one group the way she did, she ensured she pushed them all always in one fell swoop.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Uroboros   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:04 pm

Uroboros
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:56 am

Amaroq wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Duckk. I didn't realize that Kuzak wasn't a fleet admiral as well. That seems weird given her seniority.


Seniority is divided between the Admirals of the Red (Gryphon Divison) and the Admirals of the Green (Manticore Division). While Kuzack commanded a fleet, it didn't automatically make her an Admiral of the Fleet. Same with Honor, and Mike.
Duckk wrote:
Uroboros wrote:I never understood why she didn't order all her ships to head for the terminus at "best speed". Send destroyers through until the cruisers get there, send cruisers until the battlecruisers arrive, send battlecruisers until the SDs make it. That would have made better use of transit capacity which was just sitting there unused until the fleet reached it, and provided much greater tactical flexibility at the other end too. They could have started by running off or destroying the Haven battlecruisers that were hanging around watching the Junction.


Honor wanted to send through a concentrated, capable force through. She didn't have a whole lot of Mk-16 capable ships, so sending any of the older screen would have been pretty pointless. By sending all of her modern CAs and BCs in one group the way she did, she ensured she pushed them all always in one fell swoop.


I totes did not write that. That would be Imaginos1892.
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:14 pm

Imaginos1892
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1332
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:24 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Uroboros wrote:
Imaginos1892 wrote:I never understood why she didn't order all her ships to head for the terminus at "best speed". Send destroyers through until the cruisers get there, send cruisers until the battlecruisers arrive, send battlecruisers until the SDs make it. That would have made better use of transit capacity which was just sitting there unused until the fleet reached it, and provided much greater tactical flexibility at the other end too. They could have started by running off or destroying the Haven battlecruisers that were hanging around watching the Junction.


With loss of more life. Those ships would have just been picked off one by one as they exited the Junction.

"Picked off" how? Manticore never lost control of the Junction or any of its termini.

I'm just saying that the smaller ships could get there sooner, and sending a series of them through while the Junction sits idle waiting for the SDs makes sense.
-------------------
I could be arguing in my spare time.
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Duckk   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:22 pm

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4201
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

My bad, got my embeds screwed up.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Uroboros   » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:24 pm

Uroboros
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:56 am

Imaginos1892 wrote:
Uroboros wrote:With loss of more life. Those ships would have just been picked off one by one as they exited the Junction.

"Picked off" how? Manticore never lost control of the Junction or any of its termini.

I'm just saying that the smaller ships could get there sooner, and sending a series of them through while the Junction sits idle waiting for the SDs makes sense.

My mistake. It's been almost a year since I last read that book. I was confused on what you meant.
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:22 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9109
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:
Another consideration. I get the feeling that Honor's mass transit was only the second of its kind attempted. Second only after Hamish set the example? I would think that that would have been an emergency practiced from time to time. Especially because of its danger. Was Honor and Hamish the only two to initiate a mass transit? Honor's being larger of course.

Honor actually did not just an emergency major transit but at the end did a simultaneous transit of over half her biggest ships (16 SD(P)s and her CLACs); though her first 16 SD(P)s came through normally.

[Edit: I see this next paragraph got pre-empted by Duckk's more authoritative post; should have finished reading before posting]
But yeah, I think they'd at least practice it; at least at some level. Though maybe not the extremely dangerous minimum time transit of the light craft. For that matter, you could get a lot of the benefit without ever sending a ship through. Just practice the planning and having the ships reconfigure to sails (and back) against a clock on a notional wormhole entry lane. Much safer if people screw up and it doesn't mess with the routine Junction traffic. (Plus you can practice when assigned somewhere other than close cover of a terminus)



I have wondered about the relative dangers of simultaneous transit verses minimum separate transit. Because for a DD I'd think the min time transit is riskier; only seconds before the next ship might be upon you. But if that's true White Haven seems to have missed a trick on his emergency transit.
(Caution, hobby horse sighted).

At minimum separation (10 seconds apart) you can fit 6 100,000 ton DDs through in a minute. But, based on what we're told, it appears a 2.5 million ton transit shuts that wormhole lane down for 60 seconds; so it looks like you could do a mini simultaneous transit of 25 DDs in that same minute. And, with a full minute for them all to scatter and get clear before the next swarm, it seems you'd have less risk of collisions despite pushing more small fry through.

So a series of these 1-minute simultaneous transits should have given him more screen at Basilisk at a reduced change of someone running up the tail of the ship in front. (Though I guess if something did go wrong with a 25 ship jump that it's probably go very wrong and for a lot of them)
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Tenshinai   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:14 am

Tenshinai
Admiral

Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Sweden

Amaroq wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Duckk. I didn't realize that Kuzak wasn't a fleet admiral as well. That seems weird given her seniority.



Promotions are not based on seniority.
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Duckk   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:24 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4201
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:I have wondered about the relative dangers of simultaneous transit verses minimum separate transit. Because for a DD I'd think the min time transit is riskier; only seconds before the next ship might be upon you. But if that's true White Haven seems to have missed a trick on his emergency transit.
(Caution, hobby horse sighted).


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/121/1
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Battle of Manticore
Post by Dafmeister   » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:38 am

Dafmeister
Commodore

Posts: 754
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:58 am

Duckk wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I have wondered about the relative dangers of simultaneous transit verses minimum separate transit. Because for a DD I'd think the min time transit is riskier; only seconds before the next ship might be upon you. But if that's true White Haven seems to have missed a trick on his emergency transit.
(Caution, hobby horse sighted).


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/121/1


In other words, ramming 16 SD(P)s and your fleet's entire CLAC contingent through the Juntion in a simultaneous mass transit is the sort of risk you only run when there are several hundred enemy wallers in the home system, Home Fleet's been reduced to a metaphorical smear on the carpet and Third Fleet's taking massed fire from two directions.
Top

Return to Honorverse