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Solarian Military Catchup Attempts

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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by Bill Woods   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:36 pm

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stewart wrote:Back to the original intent of the thread:

SLN Catch-up efforts will likely run in 2-3 areas (and likely lead by either FF or SDF's alligned with SL / Core (as opposed to break-away like Boewolf or Maya sector)

1) System Defense Missles -- more of Technodyne extended range or similar.
...
Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.
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XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:11 pm

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Bill Woods wrote:Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.


Not necessarily.

FTL fire control is nice to have, but multiple dispersed fire-control centers would provide adequate fire-control for as long as the dispersed centers survive.
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by stewart   » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:31 pm

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Bill Woods wrote:
stewart wrote:Back to the original intent of the thread:

SLN Catch-up efforts will likely run in 2-3 areas (and likely lead by either FF or SDF's alligned with SL / Core (as opposed to break-away like Boewolf or Maya sector)

1) System Defense Missles -- more of Technodyne extended range or similar.
...
Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.


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Keep in mind that the original long-range missiles for both Haven and Manticore were pod-based.
The Andie Navy put their first long range missiles on tractored pods on the skin of their ships.
I grant you they are not Mk23 range but it is a first step, similar to Rozack and the Maya Sector's Arsenal ships or the pod-layers made from Bulk Cargo ships that Tourville and company were fighting during the interwar period.

FTL DOES reduce the decision command & control loop, but while that is being developed, there are alternatives that will extend the Sollie missile range.

-- Stewart
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:28 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Bill Woods wrote:Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.


Not necessarily.

FTL fire control is nice to have, but multiple dispersed fire-control centers would provide adequate fire-control for as long as the dispersed centers survive.

And that could be either completely duplicate control centers (which would tie up more tactical people, but have reduced lag) or a Moriarty style distributed array of fire control repeaters tying back to a central control node. More lag, but you can tie all the missiles in the system into a single integrated attack.

Neither of those really takes much research breakthroughs, they seem to be a fairly straightforward application of existing technology.


But getting really long ranged system defense missiles may be harder than you think. Despite what some of the characters speculated in the books, we know from House of Steel (and touched on again in A Call to Duty) that active impellers will damage nearby un-powered impeller nodes (or molycircs); there's a trick Manticore had to figure out to shield the additional drives' nodes. Without that trick you seem to need meters of physical separation, so you'd need a system defense missile that was several times longer than a normal missiles in order to preserve the additional drives. (Which might run into issues with acceleration, but might just mean a stupidly large and expensive missile)
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by stewart   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:17 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:

But getting really long ranged system defense missiles may be harder than you think. Despite what some of the characters speculated in the books, we know from House of Steel (and touched on again in A Call to Duty) that active impellers will damage nearby un-powered impeller nodes (or molycircs); there's a trick Manticore had to figure out to shield the additional drives' nodes. Without that trick you seem to need meters of physical separation, so you'd need a system defense missile that was several times longer than a normal missiles in order to preserve the additional drives. (Which might run into issues with acceleration, but might just mean a stupidly large and expensive missile)
[/quote]

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another alternative is a series of pre-dispersed missiles, either single or 2-stage with remote launch and targeting triggers.

A stealthed DD 15-30 LS away as the control platform -- and yes that DD is likely toast after the launch, but the Soviets had a similar technique for their AGI Trawlers following our Carrier Battle Groups during the Cold War.

-- Stewart
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by n7axw   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:02 pm

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Bill Woods wrote:
stewart wrote:Back to the original intent of the thread:

SLN Catch-up efforts will likely run in 2-3 areas (and likely lead by either FF or SDF's alligned with SL / Core (as opposed to break-away like Boewolf or Maya sector)

1) System Defense Missles -- more of Technodyne extended range or similar.
...
Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.


Long range SDMs are not that easy or everybody would be doing it. Haven got it from Ewehron, the Alignment hasn't figured them out yet. Manticore spent years developing it. The closest anyone else has gotten is the catapharact.

Don
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by SWM   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:46 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Bill Woods wrote:Long range SDMs are easy, since they aren't limited to a size that'll fit into a ship. The hard part is accuracy at long range, which takes some sort of FTL fire control. FTL communications is the essential technology that the SLN or Malign has to master to compete with the Alliance.


Long range SDMs are not that easy or everybody would be doing it. Haven got it from Ewehron, the Alignment hasn't figured them out yet. Manticore spent years developing it. The closest anyone else has gotten is the catapharact.

Don

The Cataphract is not an SDM. An SDM is a Single Drive Missile. Long-range SDMs have existed in every navy for decades. Remember the Haven-designed ground-based missiles at Blackbird? That is an example of a classical long-ranged SDM. It had a range even longer than capital missiles of the time. That's the kind of thing that was used for system defense before MDMs and pods. There were probably also space-based versions--too large to carry on ships but good for system defense.
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:44 pm

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SWM wrote:The Cataphract is not an SDM. An SDM is a Single Drive Missile. Long-range SDMs have existed in every navy for decades. Remember the Haven-designed ground-based missiles at Blackbird? That is an example of a classical long-ranged SDM. It had a range even longer than capital missiles of the time. That's the kind of thing that was used for system defense before MDMs and pods. There were probably also space-based versions--too large to carry on ships but good for system defense.


I think that here the acronym SDM is being used for System Defense Missile, not Single Drive Missile - yes, no?
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:21 pm

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SWM wrote:The Cataphract is not an SDM. An SDM is a Single Drive Missile. Long-range SDMs have existed in every navy for decades. Remember the Haven-designed ground-based missiles at Blackbird? That is an example of a classical long-ranged SDM. It had a range even longer than capital missiles of the time. That's the kind of thing that was used for system defense before MDMs and pods. There were probably also space-based versions--too large to carry on ships but good for system defense.
Ok, I initially screwed up by misreading a velocity as an acceleration :oops:, but once I got myself straightened out I did a little number crunching on the ground-based missiles we saw in HotQ.

We've got a few pieces of information about them:
* Burnout velocity is "117,000 KPS"
* Burnout range is "eight-million-plus kilometers"
* The ones launched at Fearless are clocked at "eight-three-three KPS squared" (85,000g); and still have "one-three-five seconds" left until (powered) impact.
* Finally, "The attacking missiles’ powerful drives gave them an incredible velocity—they were already moving fifty percent faster than anything of Fearless’s could have managed from rest".

Given that acceleration the burnout velocity and range both give about a 140.5 second burnout. That's in between a normal missile's 60 seconds at 100% power or 180 seconds at 50% power. So I assume the missiles are paying for their much higher than normal acceleration with reduced drive life.

The only bit that doesn't entirely track is the relative velocity, because Fearless should have missiles that are good for at least 85,000g at 100% power (certainly the CL Fearless did in the previous book). So the relative velocity would either be identical, or if Fearless was firing at 50% power setting would be 100% higher (not 50% higher). However there are still two different ways it might work, both relying on the missile's dissimilar endurance numbers.
Method 1 - compare to the CA missile at 100% power, at some point after it burns out; but the Ground missile is still accelerating. You'd hit a 1.5x velocity advantage at about 90 seconds into the flight; 30 seconds after the shipboard missile burned out. (Kind of odd way to compare, but the quote did say "already moving" implying the missiles were continuing to accelerate.

Method 2 - compare 50% power CA missile to Ground missile after each has burned out (at 180s and 140.5s respectively). The burnout velocity difference is 1.56x after both finish their powered runs.



I'm thinking that basically the Havenite missile's 85,000g is their 50% power level, but it's good for about 40 less seconds than a normal missile. That gives 8.2 million km range at that power setting, significantly more than the 6.7 million km powered range of a normal missile of that era at 50% power setting. (That being said, if 85,000g is the 50% power setting that ground bases missile's 100% setting is quicker than any missile or CM I believe we've seen to date; though I don't have my full missile spreadsheet handy)

However given those specs I'm really surprised that we didn't see those overpowered missiles deployed in a pod based format at any point during the 1st war.
Sure, you could cram in less per pod, but if I figured their numbers correctly they'd had a nice range advantage and an impressive 50% terminal velocity advantage over a pod of 'normal' capital ship missiles.


Just to compare though, those numbers are far short of what I think the max range and endurance of a Mark 14 ERM / Mark 36 LERM missile is good for; ditto for the Technodyne pod missiles used at Monica - those seem to have basically the same acceleration numbers of a similar era single drive (non-ERM) missile, but have higher drive endurance.
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Re: Solarian Military Catchup Attempts
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:37 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:However given those specs I'm really surprised that we didn't see those overpowered missiles deployed in a pod based format at any point during the 1st war.
Sure, you could cram in less per pod, but if I figured their numbers correctly they'd had a nice range advantage and an impressive 50% terminal velocity advantage over a pod of 'normal' capital ship missiles.


First war, pods were used to add missiles to the first wave of ship launched missiles. They were designed to be used only in conjunction with shipboard launchers. Filling them with missiles that could accelerate faster would make them less effective due to being worse at swamping the enemy's defenses.

Second war, both sides had MDMs to load in pods.

Also, having a 50% velocity advantage over CL missiles does not mean a 50% advantage over capital missiles. Capital missiles have always had higher accel and longer burn times.
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