Does Laccoon II play into the Mesan Alignment's master plan?

For the Alignment the problem with Laccoon II is that they have no control over it. This means that if a system decides to join the GA and then gets their access back then any neighbors will be tempted to consider the same.

Another issue is that this is happening before they are ready for it meaning they are reacting to not controlling events.

rafael wrote:For the Alignment the problem with Laccoon II is that they have no control over it. This means that if a system decides to join the GA and then gets their access back then any neighbors will be tempted to consider the same.

Another issue is that this is happening before they are ready for it meaning they are reacting to not controlling events.

The Malign was always dealing with this problem. There was the quote from an earlier Detweiler

We will use the wolves to bring down the bison. The problem is that we don't control the wolves.

An earlier poster suggested that the smart move for the MAlign is to fade into the woodwork, and work for modifications of the Beowulf code quietly. That has always been the smart move. The problem as I see it, and as has been implied by textev is that the MAlign is fixated on proving to the galaxy as a whole that Leonard Detweiler was right all along. The this sense, they have becoem zealots - "It's my way or the highway, and we are going to force you to do it my way for your own good, because you are too stupid to see that. That's what is going to make it truly ugly down the road. When it becomes obvious even to them that they are not going to be able to win militarily, they will resort to the sort of biological and nanotech warfare that resulted in the devastation of Earth in the Final War. Although the military situation is going to be close to what David refers to as "war porn", when that kicks in, A LOT of good guys are going to die, and it will be anything but pornographic, although it will be horrifying.

fallsfromtrees wrote:An earlier poster suggested that the smart move for the MAlign is to fade into the woodwork, and work for modifications of the Beowulf code quietly. That has always been the smart move. The problem as I see it, and as has been implied by textev is that the MAlign is fixated on proving to the galaxy as a whole that Leonard Detweiler was right all along. The this sense, they have becoem zealots - "It's my way or the highway, and we are going to force you to do it my way for your own good, because you are too stupid to see that. That's what is going to make it truly ugly down the road. When it becomes obvious even to them that they are not going to be able to win militarily, they will resort to the sort of biological and nanotech warfare that resulted in the devastation of Earth in the Final War. Although the military situation is going to be close to what David refers to as "war porn", when that kicks in, A LOT of good guys are going to die, and it will be anything but pornographic, although it will be horrifying.

I don't think it qualifies as war porn when you've still got an anyone-can-die situation. And you would have that if you've got asymmetric but "fair" warfare, with conventional arms entirely favoring one side and the other with invisible ninja ships and biological and nanotech agents run amuck. It may play on a different scope for what counts as 'military', but when it's within recognized usage of 'war', it's not 'war porn'. (Or pleasant.)

It does open a door for fractures within the Alignment, or between the Alignment's innermost fanatics and those who still have contact with reality and conscience. As it gets uglier, some of those who've been willing to go along with Plan A - Detweiler's, or the Galactic Supervillain Protocol - just won't have the stomach to continue it when (1) the costs mount, and (2) it's clearly off the rails and irretrievable in classic form. At that point, Plans B and C (a RF that IS what it seems, and slow reform of the Beowulf Code; and go back into hiding and try Plan A or something like it again in a few centuries, respectively) may look a whole lot better, and factions pursuing different agendas may start operating.

For that matter, the GA's under-the-table operators may make common cause with the Plan B sorts against the A and C partisans.

It's also going to be increasingly difficult to hide the scope and nature of the plan from the overwhelming majority of people in Darius. These are fairly normal people, in an isolated system, granted, but not the sorts who are going to take naturally to the Galactic Supervillain Protocol. They're 3 billion Jack McBryde's waiting to catch a whiff of what they are working for. The Alignment's been able to keep the wraps on things there so far (so far as they know), but conditions for that are going to get dicier.

JeffEngel wrote:These are fairly normal people, in an isolated system, granted, but not the sorts who are going to take naturally to the Galactic Supervillain Protocol. They're 3 billion Jack McBryde's waiting to catch a whiff of what they are working for.

I disagree. In ONE generation, the Nazi party was able to convince enough of the German populace to "go with the program" of Aryan supremacy to attempt world domination. In the setup for Darius, they're been sequestered from the galaxy for generations, know nothing about manpower/genetic slavery, and might even have a really great running civilization on their planet. Likely they have no idea about Oyster Bay, and Manticore's already supposed to be neutered or non-existent as a political entity by the time Darius gets turned loose.

The Detweiler domination plan isn't "manpower galaxy wide", that's the red herring. It is "bring the galaxy existing powers to their knees so that we super-beings can run things the way they should be on OUR plan". Even McBride didn't realize there was no freedom and a pure evil in the Alignment until he thought about the forced euthanasia of a child with essentially a medical problem they'd created to begin with.

SharkHunter wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:These are fairly normal people, in an isolated system, granted, but not the sorts who are going to take naturally to the Galactic Supervillain Protocol. They're 3 billion Jack McBryde's waiting to catch a whiff of what they are working for.

I disagree. In ONE generation, the Nazi party was able to convince enough of the German populace to "go with the program" of Aryan supremacy to attempt world domination. In the setup for Darius, they're been sequestered from the galaxy for generations, know nothing about manpower/genetic slavery, and might even have a really great running civilization on their planet. Likely they have no idea about Oyster Bay, and Manticore's already supposed to be neutered or non-existent as a political entity by the time Darius gets turned loose.

It's important there that Darius is sheltered. How well is it going to remain sheltered and blinkered? When it's just cranking out ships and crews that stay inside the blinkers, that's not a problem. But if it's going to be stomping all over, it's going to start having contact with all over. Keeping the lid on how things really are then is going to become more difficult.

They may have an easier time of it if they don't tap Darius for personnel needs outside of Darius, and just keep it cranking out ships with crews it can bring in from outside, or vet carefully for doctrinal soundness and an ability to keep their mouths shut about what they find out from outside. It's also consistent with manipulating others to do the heavy lifting; the Darius crewed units can stick to being invisible assassins without contact with outside personnel or media. But that puts a serious limit on their stormtrooper toolkit, something that may not suit the emerging needs of the plan.

The Detweiler domination plan isn't "manpower galaxy wide", that's the red herring. It is "bring the galaxy existing powers to their knees so that we super-beings can run things the way they should be on OUR plan". Even McBride didn't realize there was no freedom and a pure evil in the Alignment until he thought about the forced euthanasia of a child with essentially a medical problem they'd created to begin with.

It's what woke him up, yes. It's not just a job anymore with moves and scores when you're working with a broken man whose daughter was snuffed out as a lost gamble. But that kind of human beings as things thinking has been at the heart of genetic slavery from the beginning, and it's the essence of the long-range plan for humanity.

You need to be heavily committed to an ideology, willfully blind, or intensely unimaginative not to have a problem with that when you're brought face to face with it. The Alignment's been able to run despite that just because the number of people who do realize the full scope of it is small enough, groomed with that master-race self-identification, and kept from really regarding what those outside are thinking, in order to carry on with the plan without stopping. (And those who do waver get snuffed out too, if they're noticed wavering.)

I don't think they really can count on everyone who will be recognizing what's up being willing to participate or being caught and neutralized. If they felt they could, then Darius could have been set up without having to hide the truth from a system of true-believers.

JeffEngel wrote:You need to be heavily committed to an ideology, willfully blind, or intensely unimaginative not to have a problem with that when you're brought face to face with it. The Alignment's been able to run despite that just because the number of people who do realize the full scope of it is small enough, groomed with that master-race self-identification, and kept from really regarding what those outside are thinking, in order to carry on with the plan without stopping. (And those who do waver get snuffed out too, if they're noticed wavering.)

I don't think they really can count on everyone who will be recognizing what's up being willing to participate or being caught and neutralized. If they felt they could, then Darius could have been set up without having to hide the truth from a system of true-believers.

Many points of agreement, but I think that most of the forces on Darius are still intended (plot wise) as the equivalent of the German blitzkrieg forces in the early days of WWII, vs. true believers.