Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

didnt say it was a good idea.... only the first idea....


surely could be reasonably automated though? after all, youre not worried about survival....

SWM wrote:

Spacekiwi wrote:Oh, I know that, but it was one of the first ideas that popped into my head, as DW had made several mentions of it in text, but not actually performed it, and the ships are free/unable to be used for much else, and 17 hours can give you a hell of a lead time, especially if you can put another lot through when it stabilises. thats only ~32 Scientists, and the junction is described as big, so less might be needed for other bridges.

I was just trying to think of a way of using them disposably, as they had been mentioned to be useless for battle and such, and that was one of the first thoughts in my head, apart from the idea of using their non combat systems to enhance verge planet infrastructure.

It's an interesting idea. I think the sticking point is making those ships go through the wormhole without a crew aboard. You can't just aim the ships at the Junction and abandon ship. They have to be traveling very slowly, they have to bring up their Warshawski sails at just the right time, and then they have to trigger the hyper generator. That's a lot of automation to install onto a Scientist retroactively.

The "disposable" idea got me thinking though. With minimal crewing you could pop all of those junkers across a hyper limit towards a target, with a preprogrammed profile and missile launch timings, then abandon ship with crew going back to stealthed Rolands, Sag'Cs, maybe a CLAC or whatever behind them, point being to get perhaps the evil MAlign or SLN battle fleet to come out and face the threat of all those SD's attacking them.

Then when the SD's start to take hits, and the bad guys are just starting to feel good about themselves, you jump in the real attack force for the big ba-bang. Makes ship disposal cheaper, anyway, all those enemy ships blown to bits in someone else's star system.

You and me both had the same idea.
I figured on using them for the mousetrap portion of a battle like BOMA a page or so ago.

SharkHunter wrote:The "disposable" idea got me thinking though. With minimal crewing you could pop all of those junkers across a hyper limit towards a target, with a preprogrammed profile and missile launch timings, then abandon ship with crew going back to stealthed Rolands, Sag'Cs, maybe a CLAC or whatever behind them, point being to get perhaps the evil MAlign or SLN battle fleet to come out and face the threat of all those SD's attacking them.

Then when the SD's start to take hits, and the bad guys are just starting to feel good about themselves, you jump in the real attack force for the big ba-bang. Makes ship disposal cheaper, anyway, all those enemy ships blown to bits in someone else's star system.

Sorry Lyonheart, that can't be right. White Haven transferred his entire Eighth fleet one by one from Trevor's Star instead of sending them in lumps because those lumps would lock down any two-way route for longer and he needed to be back in Trevor's Star(or even Manticore) in case an attack came there.

It's been mentioned a couple of times; they couldn't send a mass transit because it'd lock the bridge down for nearly a day, as well as having too many ships to send in one lump. Kuzak and Honor grapple with the same problem in AAC, but the latter brought her last units through in a lump.

Any of the MWJ's bridges has that mass limit in place, applicable to both directions of journey.

I don't think it's a good scenario for wormhole defense. Each set of 30 SDs you toss through the bridge(to presumably be destroyed or captured by the enemy on the other side) would be far more effective sitting in energy range of your own 'inbound lane' of the junction.

lyonheart wrote:The 200 MT figure fore the Manticore WHJ, has always been one way, and presumably the other route on that same wormhole bridge is also 200 MT and applies only to that route, so it wouldn't effect the traffic headed the other way.

I suspect you can't send scrap into the 'out' route or lane in a termini to prevent someone from coming through because now they've exceeded the lane's maximum tonnage level.

However until RFC clarifies this point, you have raised an interesting possibility in wormhole defense.

So Kudos again.

L

Spacekiwi wrote:I was fiugring on the wormhole mass limit destabilization, without having to send crew through. We've known since OBs that putting mass transits through a junction will destabilize it for long periods of time, so these ships could be used as inexpensive disposable junction/bridge blockers, without the need to waste RMN ships on it. If the SLN control both ends for example, and you can take one group on but not both, or want to mouse trap them into the system to leave the other side weak, you maneuver their forces into the desired balance either side, draw the fleet your side away, then hyper in the disposables, eject out the crew, and have them cross the bridge. doesnt matter if they crash or die on the other side, so long as the wormhole is destabilised. Like BOMA 1 and 2, but using a bridge instead of velocity.

Not sure if my intentions are coming through properly, so please tell me if you're still confused.

Hi MunroBurton,

You may be right about closing both lanes with just 200 MT, do you have textev offhand for that?

I don't have Echoes of Honor at hand at the moment.

Timing such a defensive move would be practically impossible, but with lots of damaged SD's you could bracket the known attack time, especially if your forces were retreating through the wormhole just before the bad guys came through, or you had db's coming through when the invasion force shows up etc.

So the SD drones might be controlled from the forts, and with no humans aboard [ie compensator limits] could accelerate rather quickly to plug the wormhole, and even if they didn't succeed in stopping them inside the wormhole, then effectively ramming the invasion force even before they recovered from the transition, to demoralize them before they knew what hit them in the first place.

Indeed given the advances in drone control we've seen with GhostRider, who is to say that some old SD's might be converted to such drone work, and that their energy batteries and fire control are eventually enabled so they can fire as well?

If the defense is known by any enemy, the deterrent effect might be all that's needed, as NO ONE will want to test what happens when the 200 MT limit is exceeded, so that alone might be worth the effort in going through the motions, even it it doesn't work.

Its still the most novel suggestion I've seen at the bar or here in nine years.

SpaceKiwi's intention isn't to pilot them through the wormhole which no drone can survive, simply to exceed the wormhole's 200MT limit, the likelihood of anything but scrap reaching the other side is really remote, blocking the 'out' or exit lane is the main thing, so letting unmanned SD's get sucked in is just too bad.

L


[quote="munroburton"]Sorry Lyonheart, that can't be right. White Haven transferred his entire Eighth fleet one by one from Trevor's Star instead of sending them in lumps because those lumps would lock down any two-way route for longer and he needed to be back in Trevor's Star(or even Manticore) in case an attack came there.

It's been mentioned a couple of times; they couldn't send a mass transit because it'd lock the bridge down for nearly a day, as well as having too many ships to send in one lump. Kuzak and Honor grapple with the same problem in AAC, but the latter brought her last units through in a lump.

Any of the MWJ's bridges has that mass limit in place, applicable to both directions of journey.

I don't think it's a good scenario for wormhole defense. Each set of 30 SDs you toss through the bridge(to presumably be destroyed or captured by the enemy on the other side) would be far more effective sitting in energy range of your own 'inbound lane' of the junction.

[quote="lyonheart"]The 200 MT figure fore the Manticore WHJ, has always been one way, and presumably the other route on that same wormhole bridge is also 200 MT and applies only to that route, so it wouldn't effect the traffic headed the other way.

I suspect you can't send scrap into the 'out' route or lane in a termini to prevent someone from coming through because now they've exceeded the lane's maximum tonnage level.

However until RFC clarifies this point, you have raised an interesting possibility in wormhole defense.

So Kudos again.

L


[quote="Spacekiwi"]I was fiugring on the wormhole mass limit destabilization, without having to send crew through. We've known since OBs that putting mass transits through a junction will destabilize it for long periods of time, so these ships could be used as inexpensive disposable junction/bridge blockers, without the need to waste RMN ships on it. If the SLN control both ends for example, and you can take one group on but not both, or want to mouse trap them into the system to leave the other side weak, you maneuver their forces into the desired balance either side, draw the fleet your side away, then hyper in the disposables, eject out the crew, and have them cross the bridge. doesnt matter if they crash or die on the other side, so long as the wormhole is destabilised. Like BOMA 1 and 2, but using a bridge instead of velocity.

Not sure if my intentions are coming through properly, so please tell me if you're still confused.*quote**quote**quote**quote*

lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

You may be right about closing both lanes with just 200 MT, do you have textev offhand for that?

I don't have Echoes of Honor at hand at the moment.

Timing such a defensive move would be practically impossible, but with lots of damaged SD's you could bracket the known attack time, especially if your forces were retreating through the wormhole just before the bad guys came through, or you had db's coming through when the invasion force shows up etc.

So the SD drones might be controlled from the forts, and with no humans aboard [ie compensator limits] could accelerate rather quickly to plug the wormhole, and even if they didn't succeed in stopping them inside the wormhole, then effectively ramming the invasion force even before they recovered from the transition, to demoralize them before they knew what hit them in the first place.

Indeed given the advances in drone control we've seen with GhostRider, who is to say that some old SD's might be converted to such drone work, and that their energy batteries and fire control are eventually enabled so they can fire as well?

If the defense is known by any enemy, the deterrent effect might be all that's needed, as NO ONE will want to test what happens when the 200 MT limit is exceeded, so that alone might be worth the effort in going through the motions, even it it doesn't work.

Its still the most novel suggestion I've seen at the bar or here in nine years.

SpaceKiwi's intention isn't to pilot them through the wormhole which no drone can survive, simply to exceed the wormhole's 200MT limit, the likelihood of anything but scrap reaching the other side is really remote, blocking the 'out' or exit lane is the main thing, so letting unmanned SD's get sucked in is just too bad.

L

Here's a couple from AAC.

Smithson continued in a low pitched voice, "I've just had a rather nasty thought. What if this isn't their only fleet? What if they've got another one waiting to hit Trevor's Star as soon as we pull out for Manticore?"
"The same thought occurred to me," Kuzak replied, equally quietly.
[SNIP]
"They are. But that's another reason we can't afford to lock down the Junction with a mass transit. If they do have something like that in mind we've got to be able to get back as quickly as we left."

"It certainly would," Honor agreed. "And... [SNIP] It's still possible that's what they're going to do, which is the main reason I still don't want to lock down the Trevor's Star terminus with a mass transit,"

I've checked out Echoes of Honor and it doesn't explictly state whether the bridges count as two-way for the mass limit. White Haven's too focused on not leaving any of his units behind to kindly provide us with that tidbit of information.

However, even WH didn't bring his last 22 SDs through the wormhole in simultaneous transits, potentially shaving up to 40 minutes off his 166-minute transfer.

Honor did send 16 of her SDs and a number of CLACs in a simultaneous transit once the shoe of Fifth Fleet dropped.

The issue I have with the wormhole denial tactic is, it's hard enough to assault by wormhole anyway, the ground already favours the defenders. You have the mass limit on your way in, meaning you can only launch ~30 SDs every 17 hours. Or you can send them one by one, with a gap of about a minute between each one's appearance. It's a very, very wasteful strategy to adopt, given how effective those same 30 SDs' grasers would be if they were parked 400,000km off the junction instead of blown to atoms or sailed straight into enemy hands!

Hi MunroBurton,

Thanks very much for the references!

Kuzak and HH-A's concerns about returning to Trevor's star make the point quite handily.

200 MT at once for both lanes is the limit.

Manning even 30 SD's grasers might be more than than the GA might be willing to risk.

L

munroburton wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

You may be right about closing both lanes with just 200 MT, do you have textev offhand for that?

I don't have Echoes of Honor at hand at the moment.

Timing such a defensive move would be practically impossible, but with lots of damaged SD's you could bracket the known attack time, especially if your forces were retreating through the wormhole just before the bad guys came through, or you had db's coming through when the invasion force shows up etc.

So the SD drones might be controlled from the forts, and with no humans aboard [ie compensator limits] could accelerate rather quickly to plug the wormhole, and even if they didn't succeed in stopping them inside the wormhole, then effectively ramming the invasion force even before they recovered from the transition, to demoralize them before they knew what hit them in the first place.

Indeed given the advances in drone control we've seen with GhostRider, who is to say that some old SD's might be converted to such drone work, and that their energy batteries and fire control are eventually enabled so they can fire as well?

If the defense is known by any enemy, the deterrent effect might be all that's needed, as NO ONE will want to test what happens when the 200 MT limit is exceeded, so that alone might be worth the effort in going through the motions, even it it doesn't work.

Its still the most novel suggestion I've seen at the bar or here in nine years.

SpaceKiwi's intention isn't to pilot them through the wormhole which no drone can survive, simply to exceed the wormhole's 200MT limit, the likelihood of anything but scrap reaching the other side is really remote, blocking the 'out' or exit lane is the main thing, so letting unmanned SD's get sucked in is just too bad.

L

Here's a couple from AAC.

Smithson continued in a low pitched voice, "I've just had a rather nasty thought. What if this isn't their only fleet? What if they've got another one waiting to hit Trevor's Star as soon as we pull out for Manticore?"
"The same thought occurred to me," Kuzak replied, equally quietly.
[SNIP]
"They are. But that's another reason we can't afford to lock down the Junction with a mass transit. If they do have something like that in mind we've got to be able to get back as quickly as we left."

"It certainly would," Honor agreed. "And... [SNIP] It's still possible that's what they're going to do, which is the main reason I still don't want to lock down the Trevor's Star terminus with a mass transit,"

I've checked out Echoes of Honor and it doesn't explictly state whether the bridges count as two-way for the mass limit. White Haven's too focused on not leaving any of his units behind to kindly provide us with that tidbit of information.

However, even WH didn't bring his last 22 SDs through the wormhole in simultaneous transits, potentially shaving up to 40 minutes off his 166-minute transfer.

Honor did send 16 of her SDs and a number of CLACs in a simultaneous transit once the shoe of Fifth Fleet dropped.

The issue I have with the wormhole denial tactic is, it's hard enough to assault by wormhole anyway, the ground already favours the defenders. You have the mass limit on your way in, meaning you can only launch ~30 SDs every 17 hours. Or you can send them one by one, with a gap of about a minute between each one's appearance. It's a very, very wasteful strategy to adopt, given how effective those same 30 SDs' grasers would be if they were parked 400,000km off the junction instead of blown to atoms or sailed straight into enemy hands!

SharkHunter wrote:...With minimal crewing ...

Therein lies the flaw in in almost every scheme to garner some used out of the captured SLN SDs -- finding enough crewmen for even a "ferry crew" to move them to wherever the schemer wants to make some use.

In past discussions, the best guess anyone could come up with was 750-1000 crewmen just to move a SLN ship into and out of hyper -- crewmen competent on SLN tech.

It's a bit like asking the crew of a nuclear sub to man a square-rigged sailing ship for a trans-pacific trip.

Weird Harold wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:...With minimal crewing ...

Therein lies the flaw in in almost every scheme to garner some used out of the captured SLN SDs -- finding enough crewmen for even a "ferry crew" to move them to wherever the schemer wants to make some use.

In past discussions, the best guess anyone could come up with was 750-1000 crewmen just to move a SLN ship into and out of hyper -- crewmen competent on SLN tech.

It's a bit like asking the crew of a nuclear sub to man a square-rigged sailing ship for a trans-pacific trip.

I dunno, only hard part they'd have to learn would be to rig sail; the wet-navy types I've known have been pretty dang competent in a lot of areas! Okay, back to the Honorverse though...

With the caveat that no one really thinks that the SD's are useful for anything more than target practice, the fun is designing some sort of target practice that might be useful!

Crew numbers though, I wonder... If it only takes 50-60 for a multi-megaton freighter on an extended voyage, it shouldn't take any more to move any ship, aka, bridge crew plus engineering shifts. Besides, even with higher crewing requirements, pulling 90% of a larger group back onto a troup ship or whatever while still in hyper would still leave a small enough crew to abandon the SD later and is simple/possible (In Enemy Hands).

What takes much more crewing is to fight the ship at all, and we know there are fire and forget capabilities for the missiles that take no crewing interaction whatsoever. So you'd need 50 RMMC crews to do the ferrying to get rid of all that space junk around Spindle to somewhere else to let the other bad guys do the target practice, and one slightly more creative fire and forget sequence programmed to execute remotely a la Filerata's Folly to make the ships appear to be a fighting formation. Let Harkness get in their and play!

On second thought, maybe someone less talented than Sir Horace. We wouldn't want that space junk to actually win a battle against with fully crewed SLN fleet units, would we?

lyonheart wrote:Hi MunroBurton,

Thanks very much for the references!

Kuzak ans HH-A's concerns about returning to Trevor's star make the point quite handily.

200 MT at once for both lanes is the limit.

Manning even 30 SD's grasers might be more than than the GA might be willing to risk.

L

As noted somewhere, it's going to require 750-1500 crew just to move the things and to date, there hasn't been a successful automated transit. You could lock bridges down using merchant hulls too, with a crew small enough to evacuate via one pinnace just before transit.

Regardless of what the enemy on the other side of the junction has, I'd be quite chary of sacrificing so much resources just to buy 17 hours. Possibly this might be necessary, say if a powerful attacker seizes one of the termini and the RMN's assets are scattered all over the MBS, Basilisk, Trevor's Star and Lynx etc.

What drives my thinking is, we've read about grasers and lasers firing via computer control. 30 or 600 SDs deployed defensively with their broadsides aimed at the inbound lanes could destroy far more than any attacker could possibly hope to shove through a wormhole bridge at once, just as those BCs did to the Harvest Joy.

It may even require fewer crew to man those units this way. Essentially, deploy them as undersized forts. It's a 'better' investment for the hulls, if unnecessary IMO. The junction defenses were originally designed to stop relentless assaults from Trevor's Star using battleships, after all, and they have only improved since then.