Plot twists that WON'T happen

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:The Cromarty government lasted for decades. Erewhon couldn't wait around that long.

They had the looming or active war with Haven to hold them together, and the Centrist/Crown Loyalist coalition was much, much more ideologically coherent than the Progressive/Liberal/Conservative Association coalition. Also, in the same story where Cachat did the spadework to set up the Haven/Erewhon alliance, Anton got information that would likely have led to the collapse of the High Ridge government even without the resumption of hostilities. I don't think the High Ridge government would have survived six months past the destruction of the North Hollow Files, regardless of any other events.

SWM wrote:Erewhon needed to take retribution, and such retribution cannot be delayed without losing the entire point of it. Either Manticore makes good on their promises now, or Erewhon takes its (just, in it's opinion) retribution.

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:Erewhon needed to take retribution, and such retribution cannot be delayed without losing the entire point of it. Either Manticore makes good on their promises now, or Erewhon takes its (just, in it's opinion) retribution.

So they would have been OK with the RMN flattening their system one afternoon? Retribution and friend of my enemy and all, plus it forces Haven to dedicate resource to protect them when they active their mutual defense treaty. Wonder what response they would have gotten to that call to the RHN....

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:Erewhon needed to take retribution, and such retribution cannot be delayed without losing the entire point of it. Either Manticore makes good on their promises now, or Erewhon takes its (just, in it's opinion) retribution.

So they would have been OK with the RMN flattening their system one afternoon? Retribution and friend of my enemy and all, plus it forces Haven to dedicate resource to protect them when they active their mutual defense treaty. Wonder what response they would have gotten to that call to the RHN....

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:Erewhon needed to take retribution, and such retribution cannot be delayed without losing the entire point of it. Either Manticore makes good on their promises now, or Erewhon takes its (just, in it's opinion) retribution.

So they would have been OK with the RMN flattening their system one afternoon? Retribution and friend of my enemy and all, plus it forces Haven to dedicate resource to protect them when they active their mutual defense treaty. Wonder what response they would have gotten to that call to the RHN....

Hutch wrote:Well, you're both wrong....

SWM, retribution is the wrong word, I think. Erewhon has stated their philosphy more than once: "A Deal's a Deal." And in their eyes, Manticore has not only broken the deal, they have scoffed at it and ignored their responsibilities under it.

So it is not retribution, IMHO; it is, in the Erewhonese eyes, simply logic and justice in breaking off a treaty realationship with an untrustworthy partner. You don't follow through on a deal--OK, we're not dealing with you.

Kzt, I can't in any future imagine Manticore attacking Erewhon. I am hypothesing that Erewhon 'officially' notified Manticore that they were withdrawing from their treaty obligations (as per the appropriate clause of the treaty) prior to signing the treaty with Haven (albeit it may have been a very expedited turnaround). And Erewhon would have informed both Haven and Manticore immediately upon Haven's resumption (which caught them by surprise) that they were exercising their right, since Haven had shot first, to staying out of this part of the conflict.

Therefore Manticore would have no legal reason to attack them, thus putting the Manties in the wrong before the entire Known Space. Not to mention that the Andies would have looked askance at such behavior toward a one-time ally and confirmed neutral and begun to wonder if an Alliance with Manticore was really in their best interests--and given the conservatives in Grayson some major talking points.

And given the results of Haven's first strike, diverting enough ships and men to take and hold Erewhon would have streched Manticore's resources to the limit at a time when they needed everything on the line.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:Therefore Manticore would have no legal reason to attack them, thus putting the Manties in the wrong before the entire Known Space. Not to mention that the Andies would have looked askance at such behavior toward a one-time ally and confirmed neutral and begun to wonder if an Alliance with Manticore was really in their best interests--and given the conservatives in Grayson some major talking points.

And given the results of Haven's first strike, diverting enough ships and men to take and hold Erewhon would have streched Manticore's resources to the limit at a time when they needed everything on the line.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

kzt wrote:

Hutch wrote:Therefore Manticore would have no legal reason to attack them, thus putting the Manties in the wrong before the entire Known Space. Not to mention that the Andies would have looked askance at such behavior toward a one-time ally and confirmed neutral and begun to wonder if an Alliance with Manticore was really in their best interests--and given the conservatives in Grayson some major talking points.

And given the results of Haven's first strike, diverting enough ships and men to take and hold Erewhon would have streched Manticore's resources to the limit at a time when they needed everything on the line.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

If you are supplying guns and/or tech to my enemies and are formally allied, then you are my enemy. Since making your ally protect you is in my interest, and blowing you out of the war is also in my interest, it will likely be a bad day when I get a couple of squadrons freed up. If you wanted to be neutral then you wouldn't be arming the people with whom I was formally at war with, now would you?

Occupy isn't needed, I roll in and blow up every ship, and orbital facility in the system and kill anyone who trys to stop me. You wanted to count on the peeps to protect you, well, good luck on that. This turns you from a net gain to a net loss to my enemies, who will either 'betray you' or be forced to divert a significant amount of combat power to support their ally. Either way, it's good for me and bad for you and your ally.

Hutch wrote:Well, you're both wrong....

SWM, retribution is the wrong word, I think. Erewhon has stated their philosphy more than once: "A Deal's a Deal." And in their eyes, Manticore has not only broken the deal, they have scoffed at it and ignored their responsibilities under it.

So it is not retribution, IMHO; it is, in the Erewhonese eyes, simply logic and justice in breaking off a treaty relationship with an untrustworthy partner. You don't follow through on a deal--OK, we're not dealing with you.

kzt wrote:If you are supplying guns and/or tech to my enemies and are formally allied, then you are my enemy. Since making your ally protect you is in my interest, and blowing you out of the war is also in my interest, it will likely be a bad day when I get a couple of squadrons freed up. If you wanted to be neutral then you wouldn't be arming the people with whom I was formally at war with, now would you?

Occupy isn't needed, I roll in and blow up every ship, and orbital facility in the system and kill anyone who trys to stop me. You wanted to count on the peeps to protect you, well, good luck on that. This turns you from a net gain to a net loss to my enemies, who will either 'betray you' or be forced to divert a significant amount of combat power to support their ally. Either way, it's good for me and bad for you and your ally.

kzt wrote:

Hutch wrote:Therefore Manticore would have no legal reason to attack them, thus putting the Manties in the wrong before the entire Known Space. Not to mention that the Andies would have looked askance at such behavior toward a one-time ally and confirmed neutral and begun to wonder if an Alliance with Manticore was really in their best interests--and given the conservatives in Grayson some major talking points.

And given the results of Haven's first strike, diverting enough ships and men to take and hold Erewhon would have streched Manticore's resources to the limit at a time when they needed everything on the line.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

If you are supplying guns and/or tech to my enemies and are formally allied, then you are my enemy. Since making your ally protect you is in my interest, and blowing you out of the war is also in my interest, it will likely be a bad day when I get a couple of squadrons freed up. If you wanted to be neutral then you wouldn't be arming the people with whom I was formally at war with, now would you?

Occupy isn't needed, I roll in and blow up every ship, and orbital facility in the system and kill anyone who trys to stop me. You wanted to count on the peeps to protect you, well, good luck on that. This turns you from a net gain to a net loss to my enemies, who will either 'betray you' or be forced to divert a significant amount of combat power to support their ally. Either way, it's good for me and bad for you and your ally.