Question about Beowulf tactics

Weird Harold wrote:I am considering "the whole control channel thing" in assuming it is a generic kind of thing where anyone's light-speed control channel can control anyone else's missiles if they have the proper codes.

I'm also considering that the BSDF is more capable than the SLN and their SDs have more control redundancy than stock Scientist class SDs.

no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I am considering "the whole control channel thing" in assuming it is a generic kind of thing where anyone's light-speed control channel can control anyone else's missiles if they have the proper codes.

I'm also considering that the BSDF is more capable than the SLN and their SDs have more control redundancy than stock Scientist class SDs.

no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.

Hi kzt,

I've been thinking about Harold's premise here. If he were right, it would sure upend the "let's scrap the Solly SDs" arguement, wouldn't it?

I had been presuming that the BSDF SDs would be imcompatible with the control channels needed for a mark 23. Is that what you are thinking? If so, it does raise the question as to whether or not an interface of some sort would be possible.

Don

fallsfromtrees wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Even without a full Mycroft installation to control them, the Beowulf SDF can still control sufficient System Defense Missiles with light-speed control links to devastate any Solarian attack force. All Manticore (or Haven) needs to supply is the (Mk-25 Apollo)System Defense Missile Pods (or just Mk-23 pods) and the access codes to launch and control them.

We know the BSDF has 36 SDs compatible with the SLN's scientist class SDs, but we don't know what they have in the way of smaller ships or LACs -- any ship armed with ship-killer missiles should be able to control a few pods worth of SDMs; times eight if they're Apollo pods.

For the sake of easy Math, figure a hundred ships total capable of controlling an average of fifty missiles per salvo. That's Five Thousand Missiles per salvo; at 200 missiles/kill (an outrageously over estimate) that's 25 SD's per salvo, dead. More dead ships per salvo when the missile storms work down to BCs and smaller.

The only limitation is the number of SDM Pods seeded within range of the attacking force.

Beowulf doesn't need any help other than an immediate supply of MDM pods, preferably System Defense Missiles, to generate missile storms bigger than SLN defenses can handle.

Steathstealer - one of the reasons that you can't be sure where I'm going is that I have moved from the "SLN is toast camp" to the "Um, there may be a problem camp". My primary reason is the discussion in ART and Honor's concern. This is not a woman who jumps at shadows - if she is concerned, there is probably a damn good reason, at it would behoove rational people to pay attention. Now maybe they will move a bunch of SDM pods into the system, and the 36 SDs have sufficient control links to handle them, but from BoM II, we know that Filareta's 417 SDs could handle salvos of about 17,000 missiles. doing the arithmetic, that's about 40 missiles/SD, which is short of the number 50 Weird Harold noted. I suspect that David has already figured out what he is going to do, and didn't mention it, so as to keep his options open for the next book, and besides, if he gets asked, he likes going tum-te-tum-te-tum. It will probably to Ghost Rider platforms, and SDM pods borrowed from Manticore, but I am sure he has something.

Well, I think I'm in that category of "Um, there may be a problem camp" and I don't think that Beowulf is going to be defensively self sufficient until after the vote is taken. So I think that the RMN is going to have to respond to a call for help from Beowulf. And, if for no other reason, I believe this because the book series is written about Honor/Manticore, so I can't see a major battle (major focal point) like this taking place with out Manticore involvement. So the brain teaser/conundrum is how does the RMN supply an effective response to a call for help given the current restrictions of not being allowed to put any ships in the Beowulf system.

n7axw wrote:

kzt wrote:no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.

Hi kzt,

I've been thinking about Harold's premise here. If he were right, it would sure upend the "let's scrap the Solly SDs" arguement, wouldn't it?

I had been presuming that the BSDF SDs would be imcompatible with the control channels needed for a mark 23. Is that what you are thinking? If so, it does raise the question as to whether or not an interface of some sort would be possible.

Don

I agree with the idea that the BSDF SD's are as useless as the SLN SD's in the types of battles that will take place in the future. The only current use I can see for the BSDF SD's is more or less as a housing barrack and light speed communications link to KH-2 platforms. I can not see the 36 BSDF SD's going out to meat the invading SLN fleet. I see them as being tucked in close to KH-2 platforms so they can use that platform's FTL communications to launch system defense missiles from pods.

The only good use of a SLN era SD is that of a source of scrap mettle to be used in making newer and more capable SD'S.

kzt wrote:no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.

No matter how many pods you provide, Scientist-class SDs still only have control channels for 40-50 missiles. An Invictus with KHII can control a couple of hundred javelin or cataphract missiles.

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about Harold's premise here. If he were right, it would sure upend the "let's scrap the Solly SDs" argument, wouldn't it?

I had been presuming that the BSDF SDs would be incompatible with the control channels needed for a mark 23. Is that what you are thinking? If so, it does raise the question as to whether or not an interface of some sort would be possible.

The problem with the captured SLN ships isn't purely a lack of control channels, it is the manning requirements -- especially if donated to low-tech or low-population worlds. It takes more personnel to ferry a SLN Scientist-class SD than it does to fully man an Invictus SD(P). Sensors are substandard, Counter-measures and missile defenses are substandard.

The ability to provide light-speed control links to a limited number of MDMs doesn't offset all of the other shortcomings of the SLN fleet.

StealthSeeker wrote:I agree with the idea that the BSDF SD's are as useless as the SLN SD's in the types of battles that will take place in the future.

There have been several broad hints that SDFs have paid more attention to the Haven Sector wars and applied lessons learned that the SLN has ignored. Beowulf especially, but any of the two-dozen SDFs that field SDs, will have significantly better warships than the SLN.

Whether any non-pod-layer can withstand the missile storm possible with modern SD(P)s is debatable, but the Beowulf SDs can undoubtedly defeat more than their own weight of SLN ships. With system defense pods at hand, I doubt the SLN has anything except missile sponges to bring against Beowulf.

Weird Harold wrote:
The problem with the captured SLN ships isn't purely a lack of control channels, it is the manning requirements -- especially if donated to low-tech or low-population worlds. It takes more personnel to ferry a SLN Scientist-class SD than it does to fully man an Invictus SD(P). Sensors are substandard, Counter-measures and missile defenses are substandard.

The ability to provide light-speed control links to a limited number of MDMs doesn't offset all of the other shortcomings of the SLN fleet.

I understand your point here, Harold. It seems to me, though, that those other objections do become less cogent if you could give a scientist some real teeth by fitting it to control MDMs.

That still leaves me wondering if it is possible to use the scientists to comtrol Mark 23s. That's your premise, and while I am a bit skeptical, I really don't have an answer either way.

Don

Tactically, it all comes down to one question: "And in this corner, we have the SLN bully attack fleet..."

Given that any fleet is toast against the GA, what size force do you think that the Mandarins/Kingsford are willing to risk on the "capture Beowulf" pre-election attack scenario?

An "SLN vengeace" part of me hopes that the ultimate answer to that is "the more the merrier", with the eejits in command suffering yet another setback with a big ship surrender count. That said, I would tend to think that something the size of 11th Fleet under Filerata would be extremely hard to stop without pre-positioned GA forces and SDF pods.

I also wonder how much the SLN military tactics towards Beowulf will still be driven by the politics of Mandarins using whatever they do as a threat to the rest of the League to "stay put" vs. bad tactical advice suggested by the puppet masters whose agenda is definitely to give those same systems every reason to want new masters.

SharkHunter wrote:That said, I would tend to think that something the size of 11th Fleet under Filerata would be extremely hard to stop without pre-positioned GA forces and SDF pods.

A freighter or two with System Defense or just Mk-23s can be there in a couple of weeks -- The Apollo pods Adm Gold Peak didn't use at Spindle, for example, were recalled to Manticore after the Yawata Strike. They should be readily available.

Once the SDMs arrive, there should be no need for GA Forces any closer than the Terminus.

Weird Harold wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:I agree with the idea that the BSDF SD's are as useless as the SLN SD's in the types of battles that will take place in the future.

There have been several broad hints that SDFs have paid more attention to the Haven Sector wars and applied lessons learned that the SLN has ignored. Beowulf especially, but any of the two-dozen SDFs that field SDs, will have significantly better warships than the SLN.

Well - they'll have the familiarity with the new combat model to appreciate the need for new ships. After that, they still need to get the relevant technologies, build the new ships (or, to the extent it is practical, refit existing ones), train with the new ships, and build the missiles to fill them.

Beowulf has purposefully done without the latter steps to avoid giving away too mush to the SLN. Other SDF's may have that concern too, or they may not. If they are content to show the SLN the new stuff, they still need to buy/steal/re-invent the new gear. The IAN, just before the Second Havenite War, had a lot more funding and better intelligence and motivation, and had only managed to narrow the gap a fair bit. The other SDF's have had since then more time, but in every other way have been in a worse position than the IAN had been for modernization.

Chances are, most of them haven't gotten Haven Sector fashion MDM's (Cataphracts, or other interesting make-do efforts, maybe), fast FTL comms, or miniaturized fusion plants. I'm somewhat doubtful about modern LAC's, CLAC's for them (not likely a part of a system defense force anyway), improved inertial compensators or the confidence to run them to 90% normally, or pod-layers, but all of those are at least deeper within the realm of possibility. I'm postive none of them have developed the terrifying new laserheads of the Mark 16-G. *shudder*