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Question about Beowulf tactics

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by SharkHunter   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:47 pm

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--snipping--
n7axw wrote:That still leaves me wondering if it is possible to use the scientists to control Mark 23s. That's your premise, and while I am a bit skeptical, I really don't have an answer either way...
I'd argue "no dice", except through some strangely lashed together drone network, because control at MDM ranges pretty much demands FTL capability "in ship". It would be like trying to surround your own ship with Ghost Rider drones using light speed links during the heat of battle, with some sort of FTL jury rigged slaving them to GR-drones down range to try to control the missile storm. Lose either master or slave drone and those missiles then become uncontrolled or "best self-guess" controlled. Otherwise the light-speed control lag is just way too high

Not to mention that all current generation SLN ships are pretty much what someone else referred to as "missile sponges" against DDM or MDM guided missile tech. All known variants of the SLN "ECM" aboard any captured ship have been analyzed to a fare-thee-well, and act more like a homing beacon to GA missiles than any form of defense.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:53 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:Chances are, most of them haven't gotten Haven Sector fashion MDM's (Cataphracts, or other interesting make-do efforts, maybe), fast FTL comms, or miniaturized fusion plants. ...


The various SDFs don't need to match every advance in the Haven Sector, they just need to be more up-to-date than the ultra-conservative SLN. The Eleven SDFs of the Renaissance Factor probably come closest to matching Haven Sector Tech, but the other dozen SDFs that field SDs probably average at least a generation or two newer and better than SLN ossification.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:07 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
kzt wrote:no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.


No matter how many pods you provide, Scientist-class SDs still only have control channels for 40-50 missiles. An Invictus with KHII can control a couple of hundred javelin or cataphract missiles.

What? Why should they want to do that?

Anyhow, the SLN shops would be running Apollo packs, they are running salvos of 400 per ship. 400 Mk23s per with a squadron of 8 means 3200 per squadron, which will at least mission kill a RHN SDp. Iirc, that will actually get two. Per salvo, per squadron.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:49 pm

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kzt wrote:What? Why should they want to do that?


Who said they would. I asserted that they could.

kzt wrote:Anyhow, the SLN shops would be running Apollo packs, ...


Recipe for Rabbit Stew:

First you catch a rabbit.... :roll:

The SLN aren't going to be building "Apollo Packs" until they can capture and reverse-engineer the micro-fusion power plant and the FTL comm and AI of the ACM. So far, sucking them up with SDs doesn't seem to be working very well. :o
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:54 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:The SLN aren't going to be building "Apollo Packs" until they can capture and reverse-engineer the micro-fusion power plant and the FTL comm and AI of the ACM. So far, sucking them up with SDs doesn't seem to be working very well. :o

I know this place that has hundreds of slightly used SLN SDs and apparently an ally is turning out loads of Apollo missile packs....
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:07 pm

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Going back to the point of the Scientist class ships being able to handle Apollo pods. Missile pod control links are not going to be interchangeable between the SLN and Manticore. If it was that easy, then the GA could have sent the self destruct signal to all of Filareta's missiles, and avoided all of the mess of BOM II. In general allowing your enemy to be able to control your missiles is regarded by most navies (even the SLN) as a very bad idea. So there is going to be a substantial amount of work to enable a Scientist to control the Apollo pods, perhaps taking more time than is available. It is possible that the BSDF can handle them, but the captured ships - not a chance.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:26 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
kzt wrote:no, if that was the case you could trivially equip captured SLN SDs with flat packs. SDs with mk23s are a threat to most anyone.


No matter how many pods you provide, Scientist-class SDs still only have control channels for 40-50 missiles. An Invictus with KHII can control a couple of hundred javelin or cataphract missiles.
It's also possible that even if you can program a Scientist-class's computers to talk to Mk23s that the antennas, amplifiers, etc for it's fire control link aren't up to maintaining that link all the way out to the 65 million km powered range of those MDMs.

They were only designed to control missiles with about a 7.5 million km range; though they apparently could handle the 16 million km range of the Cataphracts without any mention of having to modify the fire control links first...
So who knows, maybe they'd be able to reach out to 4 times that distance, or maybe they wouldn't. (Not that anybody w/o Apollo is super effective at that extreme range)


Though if paired up with Apollo pods in light-speed control mode that would give the Scientist-class an 8x multiplier on the number of missiles they could control. (But that's equally true for anybody talking to Mk23Es)
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:45 pm

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Someone injected the thought that since the SLN and Manticore and Haven. at least, are now at war, the SLN /Mandarins could invoke the War portions of the SL constitution and other laws to tell Beowulf to help defend the SL and allow SLN warships into Beowulf space- then, when Beowulf rejects that and/or fires on SLN ships entering the hyper limit, SLN jumps in with both feet to seize Beowulf as a traitor system to the SL.

Interesting legal point. Sending a fleet of the SLN to demand compliance is interesting given that Beowulf is a SOVEREIGN system. It has given proper notice of intent to hold the plebiscite and, in my opinion, be justified in telling the SL (its representatives and or the SLN) to stay the hell out of the system until the vote is taken. If- as we expect- the SL tries to inject it's military into the process and actualy cross the hyper limit, I believe Beowulf is within it's right (and necessity) of defending itself and it's population. Things will then get ugly.

That would be the point at which the BSDF and all the pods (of whatever manufacture and whichever brand of tech) Beowulf has been pumping out of its manufactuing lines for it's own use are used to obliterate anything the SLN sends into the system. The yammering will continue on Earth in any case.
Political people will posture and scream, propaganda will flow in massive amounts. Calls for the other members of the SL to rise up and both support the SLN and the government in crushing this assault on the SLN with the craven backstabing of the naval forces.

Beowulf will 1) tell the SL that they will get around to sending SLN casualty lists by the news services if they can find any data on the hulks that are left. 2) Send the SL a preliminary bill for expended ammunition, cost of operating the ships, massive compensatory damages for any Beowulf citizens and/or military hurt or killed in the fighting. 3) Send preliminary reports including sensor data by news service couriers to at least 20 major systems including Sol with copies to be forewarded to every new service they can think of. 4) Send a diplomatic notice (through someone like Erewhon) for all of the above plus the first couple of lawsuits for the illegal actions of the SL and the SLN against Beowulf.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:35 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:Going back to the point of the Scientist class ships being able to handle Apollo pods. Missile pod control links are not going to be interchangeable between the SLN and Manticore. If it was that easy, then the GA could have sent the self destruct signal to all of Filareta's missiles, ...


It's not that simple; you need the encryption key for each pod/missile before you can grab control. It's not like any navy transmits unencrypted control to its missiles.

I suppose it's possible that SLN fire-control can only handle eight-bit encryption keys, while Apollo ACMs and Mk-23s require 1024 bit encryption keys, but that's probably the only possible incompatibility. If a control link can handle the encryption keys, it can control the missiles. Other factors like sensor reach or control link transmitter power might limit how well any given missile can be controlled, but some degree of control should be possible.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:36 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Someone injected the thought that since the SLN and Manticore and Haven. at least, are now at war, the SLN /Mandarins could invoke the War portions of the SL constitution and other laws to tell Beowulf to help defend the SL and allow SLN warships into Beowulf space- then, when Beowulf rejects that and/or fires on SLN ships entering the hyper limit, SLN jumps in with both feet to seize Beowulf as a traitor system to the SL.

The SEM has noted their sense that a state of war exists between them and the League. The League hasn't had a declaration of war - they'd need to get that one through the Assembly, barring a plausible claim of an Eridani Edict violation (!) by the Grand Alliance. Without that declaration, Beowulf can, if they feel a need to respond at all, and after they are done laughing, tell the League rep to pound sand. Oh, and here's our veto of that declaration. Buh-bye. We've got a vote to take here, quit pulling our leg.
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